Is the country becoming authoritarian?

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philfodenswristsock

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I've never been one to take much interest in the inane rantings of the Right. But over the years a regular theme from them is the country's lurch to authoritarianism.

Going futher back the 'conspiracy theorists' like David Icke used to warn of moves to bring in laws "for our own protection". The powers that be have been infatuated by ID cards for years, monitoring on the street, on the road, online, in the shops, in our bank accounts, at the work place has certainly snuck in under the radar. Now we are seeing more laws crushing free speech (our traditional way of dealing with the racist Right was to let the pricvks sink themselves and beat them in an argument) Now I'm hearing about some sort of European bill to allow access to private messages etc...

The traditional response to concerns of this nature has been "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide"... which obviously is nonsense because who gets to decide what's wrong? Will going on strike become wrong, joining a union, expressing concerns about genocide, will being anti war be classed as wrong?

So, what are peoples feelings? Am I becoming paranoid? Is the world really SO dangerous we need rules "for our own protection" What direction is the country really going?
 
Yes, I would say you are becoming a little paranoid but there again, I am in favour of ID cards etc.

I don't personally think the UK is becoming more authoritarian and it should be noted that authoritarianism isn't limited to the right.
 
There's a film called Brazil from 1985 - a black comedy, slightly absurdist - that i always think of when i think of the political direction of the UK.

It's creeping authoritarianism via mass bureaucracy, sort of sleep walking into it by mistake by countering rules with rules and more rules.
 
PragueBlue said:
Yes, I would say you are becoming a little paranoid but there again, I am in favour of ID cards etc.

I don't personally think the UK is becoming more authoritarian and it should be noted that authoritarianism isn't limited to the right.
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This is true. I guess i was clumsily alluding to the fact the wonky eyed Right have been yapping about it for years. But, yes, the Left also have concerns and yes, the Right don't have a 100% monopoly on actually authoritarianism, I agree.
 
shemnel said:
There's a film called Brazil from 1985 - a black comedy, slightly absurdist - that i always think of when i think of the political direction of the UK.

It's creeping authoritarianism via mass bureaucracy, sort of sleep walking into it by mistake by countering rules with rules and more rules.
Click to expand...
Yes, i remember watching that years ago. Terry Gilliam does Orwell type of thing. It's true though, it will drip drip in. 'Personnel' becoming 'H.R' a prime example. Too much power in the workplace.
 
philfodenswristsock said:
I've never been one to take much interest in the inane rantings of the Right. But over the years a regular theme from them is the country's lurch to authoritarianism.

Going futher back the 'conspiracy theorists' like David Icke used to warn of moves to bring in laws "for our own protection". The powers that be have been infatuated by ID cards for years, monitoring on the street, on the road, online, in the shops, in our bank accounts, at the work place has certainly snuck in under the radar. Now we are seeing more laws crushing free speech (our traditional way of dealing with the racist Right was to let the pricvks sink themselves and beat them in an argument) Now I'm hearing about some sort of European bill to allow access to private messages etc...

The traditional response to concerns of this nature has been "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide"... which obviously is nonsense because who gets to decide what's wrong? Will going on strike become wrong, joining a union, expressing concerns about genocide, will being anti war be classed as wrong?

So, what are peoples feelings? Am I becoming paranoid? Is the world really SO dangerous we need rules "for our own protection" What direction is the country really going?
Click to expand...

I've never been so convinced that ID cards are a very good thing.
 
The left will say it is when a group like Palestine action is banned and folk are arrested for supporting it and the right will claim so when protesters outside an hotel are arrested.

On each example the opposition will think it’s great and applaud it with no mention of authoritarianism at all.
 
philfodenswristsock said:
I've never been one to take much interest in the inane rantings of the Right. But over the years a regular theme from them is the country's lurch to authoritarianism.

Going futher back the 'conspiracy theorists' like David Icke used to warn of moves to bring in laws "for our own protection". The powers that be have been infatuated by ID cards for years, monitoring on the street, on the road, online, in the shops, in our bank accounts, at the work place has certainly snuck in under the radar. Now we are seeing more laws crushing free speech (our traditional way of dealing with the racist Right was to let the pricvks sink themselves and beat them in an argument) Now I'm hearing about some sort of European bill to allow access to private messages etc...

The traditional response to concerns of this nature has been "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide"... which obviously is nonsense because who gets to decide what's wrong? Will going on strike become wrong, joining a union, expressing concerns about genocide, will being anti war be classed as wrong?

So, what are peoples feelings? Am I becoming paranoid? Is the world really SO dangerous we need rules "for our own protection" What direction is the country really going?
Click to expand...
I'd argue the opposite.

Even as a lefty I'm questioning the lack of authority being allowed.

Police only seem to be allowed nick people protesting without fear of being sued.
Certain political protesting is being jumped on whilst others are allowed to permeate.

Apart from that, from my own experience at work any **** can get away with anything and the lack of support when I've needed it. Including nailed on cases of physical assault have been dismissed by an already overworked and understaffed police force.
 


There is a lot wrong in the UK and we are currently living through a dark age of politics but unless we elect a dominant leader like Putin or Netanyahu I think we are still a parliamentary democracy.
 
blueinsa said:
The left will say it is when a group like Palestine action is banned and folk are arrested for supporting it and the right will claim so when protesters outside an hotel are arrested.

On each example the opposition will think it’s great and applaud it with no mention of authoritarianism at all.
Click to expand...
Agree with your first paragraph, in that there will always be groups that perceive suppression that isn't really there. But doesn't that just prove we aren't an authoritarian state?

In a truly authoritarian state, only one of those groups would be allowed to propagate, and the other would be completely quashed. We still have vocal support on both sides. Try finding that in Russia or North Korea.
 
Blue and true said:
Agree with your first paragraph, in that there will always be groups that perceive suppression that isn't really there. But doesn't that just prove we aren't an authoritarian state?

In a truly authoritarian state, only one of those groups would be allowed to propagate, and the other would be completely quashed. We still have vocal support on both sides. Try finding that in Russia or North Korea.
Click to expand...

We agree, we are not in an authoritarian state.
 
philfodenswristsock said:
I've never been one to take much interest in the inane rantings of the Right. But over the years a regular theme from them is the country's lurch to authoritarianism.

Going futher back the 'conspiracy theorists' like David Icke used to warn of moves to bring in laws "for our own protection". The powers that be have been infatuated by ID cards for years, monitoring on the street, on the road, online, in the shops, in our bank accounts, at the work place has certainly snuck in under the radar. Now we are seeing more laws crushing free speech (our traditional way of dealing with the racist Right was to let the pricvks sink themselves and beat them in an argument) Now I'm hearing about some sort of European bill to allow access to private messages etc...

The traditional response to concerns of this nature has been "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide"... which obviously is nonsense because who gets to decide what's wrong? Will going on strike become wrong, joining a union, expressing concerns about genocide, will being anti war be classed as wrong?

So, what are peoples feelings? Am I becoming paranoid? Is the world really SO dangerous we need rules "for our own protection" What direction is the country really going?
Click to expand...

I think that using David Icke as your jump off point wasn't the best move.

A lot of people who are against the things you raise are those that bang on about free speech. But they also have bees in their bonnets about other things too. For starters they are anti-i.d. cards but are also anti-migrant. Wouldn't i.d. cards help in locating migrants or indeed anyone who shouldn't be here?

A lot of the monitoring you raise are only there because there are bad actors in the world. People who speed, people who attack people in the street ( or at St, Pancras Station) there's increases in shoplifting and in fraud cases. Now the alternative is to use people - more traffic cops ( more taxes ) - flood the street with uniformed Police Officers ( more taxes ) - security guards in every retails space ( inflationary as you'll be paying more for the goods they are protecting ) - access to bank accounts, well that could help recover money that people have been defrauded out of or allow the Govt to expose all those people "playing the benefits system" that they tell us are out there.

You see we all still want speeders caught rather than having your high street turned into a race track, we quite like the idea that a phone snatcher or assailant can be identified off surveillance footage ( unless you are Mike Amesbury ) we like cheaper goods and we agree fraudsters need to be dealt with. BUT - none of us want to pay. The majority have been fed a line that taxes are bad but we can do stuff more cheaply with less by using monitoring so anyone who doesn't like it has been passively lobbying for it for decades. What they actually want is for everybody else to be monitored but for them to be let out of the system.

As for any law from Europe why worry - we left remember?
 
philfodenswristsock said:
I've never been one to take much interest in the inane rantings of the Right. But over the years a regular theme from them is the country's lurch to authoritarianism.

Going futher back the 'conspiracy theorists' like David Icke used to warn of moves to bring in laws "for our own protection". The powers that be have been infatuated by ID cards for years, monitoring on the street, on the road, online, in the shops, in our bank accounts, at the work place has certainly snuck in under the radar. Now we are seeing more laws crushing free speech (our traditional way of dealing with the racist Right was to let the pricvks sink themselves and beat them in an argument) Now I'm hearing about some sort of European bill to allow access to private messages etc...

The traditional response to concerns of this nature has been "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide"... which obviously is nonsense because who gets to decide what's wrong? Will going on strike become wrong, joining a union, expressing concerns about genocide, will being anti war be classed as wrong?

So, what are peoples feelings? Am I becoming paranoid? Is the world really SO dangerous we need rules "for our own protection" What direction is the country really going?
Click to expand...
No we aren't authoritarian. Now be told!
 
philfodenswristsock said:
I've never been one to take much interest in the inane rantings of the Right. But over the years a regular theme from them is the country's lurch to authoritarianism.

Going futher back the 'conspiracy theorists' like David Icke used to warn of moves to bring in laws "for our own protection". The powers that be have been infatuated by ID cards for years, monitoring on the street, on the road, online, in the shops, in our bank accounts, at the work place has certainly snuck in under the radar. Now we are seeing more laws crushing free speech (our traditional way of dealing with the racist Right was to let the pricvks sink themselves and beat them in an argument) Now I'm hearing about some sort of European bill to allow access to private messages etc...

The traditional response to concerns of this nature has been "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide"... which obviously is nonsense because who gets to decide what's wrong? Will going on strike become wrong, joining a union, expressing concerns about genocide, will being anti war be classed as wrong?

So, what are peoples feelings? Am I becoming paranoid? Is the world really SO dangerous we need rules "for our own protection" What direction is the country really going?
Click to expand...
Certainly a lot more info on us is being collected and the law prohibiting gov
from joining up different sources was junked some time ago.
Big brother is watching you.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I think that using David Icke as your jump off point wasn't the best move.

A lot of people who are against the things you raise are those that bang on about free speech. But they also have bees in their bonnets about other things too. For starters they are anti-i.d. cards but are also anti-migrant. Wouldn't i.d. cards help in locating migrants or indeed anyone who shouldn't be here?

A lot of the monitoring you raise are only there because there are bad actors in the world. People who speed, people who attack people in the street ( or at St, Pancras Station) there's increases in shoplifting and in fraud cases. Now the alternative is to use people - more traffic cops ( more taxes ) - flood the street with uniformed Police Officers ( more taxes ) - security guards in every retails space ( inflationary as you'll be paying more for the goods they are protecting ) - access to bank accounts, well that could help recover money that people have been defrauded out of or allow the Govt to expose all those people "playing the benefits system" that they tell us are out there.

You see we all still want speeders caught rather than having your high street turned into a race track, we quite like the idea that a phone snatcher or assailant can be identified off surveillance footage ( unless you are Mike Amesbury ) we like cheaper goods and we agree fraudsters need to be dealt with. BUT - none of us want to pay. The majority have been fed a line that taxes are bad but we can do stuff more cheaply with less by using monitoring so anyone who doesn't like it has been passively lobbying for it for decades. What they actually want is for everybody else to be monitored but for them to be let out of the system.

As for any law from Europe why worry - we left remember?
Click to expand...
one of the best posts I've read on bluemoon
 
We are nowhere near an authoritarian state. Our media is not centrally controlled, we are allowed freedom of movement and there is certainly no emphasis of obedience to authority. In fact the latter is what may move us along to a more authoritarian state. Crime is an issue that resonates with far more people than immigration yet we appear to see reduced police numbers, tolerance of certain crimes and a total collapse of our prison system. When offenders are sometimes serving just a third of their sentences people are rightly annoyed.
 
MellowJoe said:
You know what we need? More cameras videoing every single thing every person does
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Yeah. Could be worth a fortune. Solve the tax and spend hole. Boris tapes worth 59% extra. Alternatively, don’t worry, our govs are far too inefficient to be authoritarian.
 
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