Israel & the UAE diplomatic agreement

[Eds]

Good news. We really need to see a transformation in the quality of life for the occupied Palestinians for this to have lasting benefits IMHO.

Not starting a huge debate but nobody is occupied

 

[FCBarca]

Israel has yet to ever comply with a treaty much less peace

 

[Deleted member 77198]

News breaking that Israel & the UAE have agreed to normalise diplomatic relations. Presumably this will involve the UAE formally recognising Israel and exchanging diplomatic missions. Saudi Arabia next I'd imagine. As a result, Israel has agreed to suspend its plan to annex parts of the West Bank. That's a big step in the right direction but a long way to go yet. It will also piss Qatar off, who fund Hamas in Gaza.

So the Qatar rooted anti-City media campaign will crank up somewhat. I’ll take that for steps forward in the Middle East!

But what does this mean for Palestine?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Not starting a huge debate but nobody is occupied

That’s a bit like claiming the people who build the pyramids weren’t slaves.

 

[SWP's back]

That’s a bit like claiming the people who build the pyramids weren’t slaves.

They weren’t though. I was put right on that a few weeks ago on Bluemoon having previously thought they were as well.

 

[urban genie]

That’s a bit like claiming the people who build the pyramids weren’t slaves.

They weren't

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

@Prestwich_Blue , @Ban-jani , @west didsblue.
Comparing suffering on the basis of my rhetorical question is in doubtful taste.
My point about the Palestinians is that there is no hope in sight after more than 70 years of displacement. They are betrayed by their own leaders and ignored by the West. A complete generation has been born, grown up and died in refugee camps scattered across the M.E.
The world is largely ignorant of their plight.
Here is just one story which is repeated right across the region.

Palestine Refugees in Syria: A Tale of Devastation and Courage – UNRWA Commissioner-General Op Ed - Question of Palestine

14 March 2019 Arabic: العربية Op-ed by Pierre Krähenbühl, Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) When last visiting the Yarmouk refugee camp, in Damascus, I was confronted with a scale of devastation unlike anything I had witnessed...

www.un.org

The forgotten Palestinians of Syria - Macleans.ca

Yarmouk, an unofficial Palestinian refugee camp in Syria, "has been transformed into a death camp, like one of the lower regions of hell," yet Palestinian leaders in the West Bank and Gaza have taken little notice

www.macleans.ca

Perhaps it was the way you phrased the question. I agree they've had a shitty deal, from both their own leaders and the Israelis. And also from their fellow Arabs, who've paid lip service to the cause but done nothing practical to help them and a lot to hinder them.

I don't want to get into the whole history again but they've been offered various deals since the 1920's and turned them all down. The state they could have had in 1948, with all its drawbacks, would have been far better than anything they'll get now, if they get anything at all. The Jordanians could have given them independence in 1948, but they annexed the West Bank territory they captured in the War of Independence. Since 1967 the Israelis have effectively annexed part of the West Bank via the building of large settlements.

The problem for the Palestinians has always been that their leaders have put their hatred of Israel above the welfare of their own people. The lesser known side of what the Palestinians call the Nakba, the uprooting of many Palestinians from their homes in 1948, was the similar number of Jews uprooted from their homes in many Arab & North African communities from the 1930's onwards but particularly in the late 1940's and early 1950's. The vast majority of those went to the new Israeli state but they were absorbed, rather than still being sat festering in grim refugee camps. There's an argument in Israel that some of these people are or were treated as second-class citizens but at least they're citizens.

Arab countries could easily have absorbed those 800,000 since 1948 and they'd have been in an environment that at least they'd have been used to, where they spoke the same language and prayed to the same god. Compare that to Eritrean refugees coming to the UK for example. But Arab states wouldn't do that. UNWRA reports that Palestinians in Lebanon can't own property and are banned from working in 39 professions. That's akin to the early actions of the Nazis against the Jews in 1930's Germany. Half the Palestinian Diaspora, who live outside Israel, the West Bank & Gaza are stateless. Why?

For me, all this is summed up by the fact that if Hamas, who rule the Gaza Strip (when's the next election there by the way?) turned round to Israel tomorrow and said "Tell you what. We're tired of all this shit. We'll sign a peace deal with you, recognise your existence, renounce violence and disband our military wing and disarm all other groups. In return, we want you to recognise us as an independent state, lift the blockade and work with us to help us build a better environment for our people", the Israelis would snatch their hands off. They'd probably give Gaza special economic status, aid would come in from the outside world and you'd end up with a very prosperous state. What this agreement, and the ones that will follow, might do is to help that become reality and I'm all for that.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

They weren’t though. I was put right on that a few weeks ago on Bluemoon having previously thought they were as well.

if I’m wrong on that example I’m wrong but the eye witness of the time (Herodotus) said there were slaves working the pyramids and the tombs for honoured workers in the pyramids would only have been a tiny fraction of the workforce. Poor Egyptians from villages in the North and South were also used on the Pyramids who were trying to improve their lives.

The main myth that has been busted IMHO (reading the research) is that Israelite slaves built the pyramids that I never said was the case. FWIW, Begin is understood to have started the myth in 1973 and we had a family friend who knew him from their days in the Irgun.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Perhaps it was the way you phrased the question. I agree they've had a shitty deal, from both their own leaders and the Israelis. And also from their fellow Arabs, who've paid lip service to the cause but done nothing practical to help them and a lot to hinder them.

I don't want to get into the whole history again but they've been offered various deals since the 1920's and turned them all down. The state they could have had in 1948, with all its drawbacks, would have been far better than anything they'll get now, if they get anything at all. The Jordanians could have given them independence in 1948, but they annexed the West Bank territory they captured in the War of Independence. Since 1967 the Israelis have effectively annexed part of the West Bank via the building of large settlements.

The problem for the Palestinians has always been that their leaders have put their hatred of Israel above the welfare of their own people. The lesser known side of what the Palestinians call the Nakba, the uprooting of many Palestinians from their homes in 1948, was the similar number of Jews uprooted from their homes in many Arab & North African communities from the 1930's onwards but particularly in the late 1940's and early 1950's. The vast majority of those went to the new Israeli state but they were absorbed, rather than still being sat festering in grim refugee camps. There's an argument in Israel that some of these people are or were treated as second-class citizens but at least they're citizens.

Arab countries could easily have absorbed those 800,000 since 1948 and they'd have been in an environment that at least they'd have been used to, where they spoke the same language and prayed to the same god. Compare that to Eritrean refugees coming to the UK for example. But Arab states wouldn't do that. UNWRA reports that Palestinians in Lebanon can't own property and are banned from sworking in 39 professions. That's akin to the early actions of the Nazis against the Jews in 1930's Germany. Half the Palestinian Diaspora, who live outside Israel, the West Bank & Gaza are stateless. Why?

For me, all this is summed up by the fact that if Hamas, who rule Gaza Strip (when's the next election there by the way?) turbned round to Israel tomorrow and said "Tell you what. We're tired of all this shit. We'll sign a peace deal with you, recognise your existence, renounce violence and disband our military wing and disarm all other groups. In return, we want you to recognise us as an independent state, lift the blockade and work with us to help us build a better environment for our people", the Israelis would snatch their hands off. They'd probably give Gaza special economic status, aid would come in from the outside world and you'd end up with a very prosperous state. What this agreement, and the ones that will follow, might do is to help that become reality and I'm all for that.

Interesting post Colin. One thing I have picked up is that as the Palestinians became more deaerate over the decades, ruthless terrorists were increasingly idolised in Palestinian communities. Maybe this ultimately opened the door to Hamas, I’m not sure.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the cost of the Israeli / Palestian conflict can’t just be measured on the significant impact on Israel / Palestine. It has been an open wound that has influenced other conflicts in the Region that have also had a staggering cost on humanity. If a solution could be found fingers crossed (and the UAE / Israel deal might be a drop in the ocean) the potential upside is great.

 

[KS55]

Perhaps it was the way you phrased the question. I agree they've had a shitty deal, from both their own leaders and the Israelis. And also from their fellow Arabs, who've paid lip service to the cause but done nothing practical to help them and a lot to hinder them.

I don't want to get into the whole history again but they've been offered various deals since the 1920's and turned them all down. The state they could have had in 1948, with all its drawbacks, would have been far better than anything they'll get now, if they get anything at all. The Jordanians could have given them independence in 1948, but they annexed the West Bank territory they captured in the War of Independence. Since 1967 the Israelis have effectively annexed part of the West Bank via the building of large settlements.

The problem for the Palestinians has always been that their leaders have put their hatred of Israel above the welfare of their own people. The lesser known side of what the Palestinians call the Nakba, the uprooting of many Palestinians from their homes in 1948, was the similar number of Jews uprooted from their homes in many Arab & North African communities from the 1930's onwards but particularly in the late 1940's and early 1950's. The vast majority of those went to the new Israeli state but they were absorbed, rather than still being sat festering in grim refugee camps. There's an argument in Israel that some of these people are or were treated as second-class citizens but at least they're citizens.

Arab countries could easily have absorbed those 800,000 since 1948 and they'd have been in an environment that at least they'd have been used to, where they spoke the same language and prayed to the same god. Compare that to Eritrean refugees coming to the UK for example. But Arab states wouldn't do that. UNWRA reports that Palestinians in Lebanon can't own property and are banned from sworking in 39 professions. That's akin to the early actions of the Nazis against the Jews in 1930's Germany. Half the Palestinian Diaspora, who live outside Israel, the West Bank & Gaza are stateless. Why?

For me, all this is summed up by the fact that if Hamas, who rule Gaza Strip (when's the next election there by the way?) turbned round to Israel tomorrow and said "Tell you what. We're tired of all this shit. We'll sign a peace deal with you, recognise your existence, renounce violence and disband our military wing and disarm all other groups. In return, we want you to recognise us as an independent state, lift the blockade and work with us to help us build a better environment for our people", the Israelis would snatch their hands off. They'd probably give Gaza special economic status, aid would come in from the outside world and you'd end up with a very prosperous state. What this agreement, and the ones that will follow, might do is to help that become reality and I'm all for that.

Excellent post, thanks.
Palestinians sorely treated by their own so called leaders, especially if you are right about Israel 'snatching their hands off'. That deal will take some time! And several stages.
One thing I have never really understood: why are the Palestinians so shunned by so many arab countries?
We can only hope for progress. UAE has stood up for Palestinians in the past. I wonder if they feel betrayed now? Alternatively, can UAE act as agent for change from within a UAE-Israel pact?
PS City supporters now have to be experts in this conflict too, now the state, which does NOT own or financially support us, is centre stage!