It's Quiet 32 - enter at own risk

[citizens_1976]

Not trying to have a go, but here is a basic club production comparison between Aguero at ~17 and Jesus at ~22 (it is difficult to get detailed stats for Aguero playing his last season at Independiente, so this obviously does not take in to account assists and defence contribution).

Keep in mind Sergio was playing in the Argentina Primera Division and Gabby is playing in what is widely considered one of the best leagues in the world (albeit arguably for currently the best team in the world).

Stat - Aguero - Jesus
Appearances - 36 - 29
Goals - 18 - 21
G/App - 0.70 - 0.72

Regardless of stats, when watching Aguero at Atletico Madrid at 21, 22... you could see he had genuine star quality. He had that low centre of gravity, the skill, the poise, the balance, the finishing ability, the speed... do you GENUINELY see the same with Gabriel Jesus?

I think Jesus is a good player, but you could see there was something very special about Aguero whereas i don't feel it whatsoever with Jesus.

If Rashford played for City instead of Jesus, would he of scored the same amount of goals as Jesus? Aguero is a different beast altogether.

 

[mosssideblue]

That first sentence is just hyperbole. The team is not weakened let alone considerably when jesus starts instead of aguero. If one thing the past season should've shown or taught anyone it would be that its the system that makes this side more so than any specific players' quality(outside of probably ederson).

Going into the season if anyone told you de-bruyne would be missing for large portions of the season through injury and that fernandinho would also miss most of the business end of it through injury would you have envisioned a treble winning season. A team that went through most of the season fighting for 4 competitions with zinchecko as its main left back.

Now does the side lose something without the likes of de-bruyne, fernandinho and even sane in the side, yes without a doubt. But does that make it weakened in any considerable way, no. The style of play never changes, they just find another way to dominate and create chances.

Aguero is a world class player and the current version of him is the best he's ever been, He's always been a deadly finisher and poacher in the box with immense dribbling ability but his link up play, pressing and awareness have all improved immensely from what they were before pep arrived. He's rightly cemented himself as the 1st choice striker this season after a period of uncertainty and him getting adapted to peps style of play during his first 2 seasons. Ironically despite still scoring at a good rate pep seemed to trust jesus more in his second season and there were some questioning(including even me) if he would ever adapt to the way pep wanted him to play which changed this season with him being the all-rounder pep wants.

That brings it to my next point. Gabriel jesus is not yet the same quality as aguero but is still a very good young player with intelligence and awareness of space beyond his years. That combined with his high work rate, good link-up play and technical ability means the team loses little if anything when he starts and is certainly not weakened. What if I told you the team scores at around the same rate of goals regardless of who starts between them would it be a surprise to you.

Basically to summarise, the team could win 5-0 with jesus starting and he may score just the one goal but would still be an important cog of the system due to his intelligence and movement allowing more space for the other attacking players to contribute more while in another instance with the same 5-0 scoreline but with aguero starting, aguero might score 4 due to his natural poaching ability and finishing. The team would win both games, the two players would contribute in their own separate ways to that victory and the fact that aguero scored the 4 goals compared to jesus' 1 doesn't mean the team were weakened as a result. It just means one has other qualities that benefits the team and system in its own way.

Not only do I believe jesus is a more than capable understudy, I also believe at just 22 he has a lot of room to improve where he would be one of the best strikers in the world and lead the team to many trophies. I don't get this idea that he's not good enough and the club needs to spend big to replace aguero.

Top post

 

[SebastianBlue]

Regardless of stats, when watching Aguero at Atletico Madrid at 21, 22... you could see he had genuine star quality. He had that low centre of gravity, the skill, the poise, the balance, the finishing ability, the speed... do you GENUINELY see the same with Gabriel Jesus?

I think Jesus is a good player, but you could see there was something very special about Aguero whereas i don't feel it whatsoever with Jesus.

If Rashford played for City instead of Jesus, would he of scored the same amount of goals as Jesus? Aguero is a different beast altogether.

Yes.

 

[citizens_1976]

Yes.

Well i just don't see it personally. Put him in United's team instead of Rashford and lets see how many goals he would score...

 

[SebastianBlue]

Well i just don't see it personally. Put him in United's team instead of Rashford and lets see how many goals he would score...

Same could be said of Aguero.

Would any of our players play even remotely as well as they do for us if they were singularly transplanted in to the current United team with Ole at the wheel?

 

[citizens_1976]

When you trust those people, when those people are sensible and very well balanced in work and life in general and can back up what they say with sound reasoning then yes I am happy to base my opinion on what they say.

Paul Merson would be earning a healthy lifestyle if he didn’t have his demons but he’s essentially bankrupt in all but name. As for my job, I’ve never done a hard days work in my life and my hands are softer than silk thank you.

How can you judge someone's opinion as "correct" from their lifestyle? There is no "right or wrong" opinion and it's arrogant and ignorant to even state that. People just have different opinions. That's life.

Some people at the club don't rate David Silva and Kevin De Bruyne. That's not to say I'm going to say I don't know how they get along in day to day Iife with such an opinion, because that is their opinion.

I just say look at the facts, Juventus won the league with a bigger margin than they did last year due to the goals Ronaldo has scored. It's only his first season, I would say give the man some time.

Same could be said of Aguero.

Would any of our players play even remotely as well as they do for us if they were singularly transplanted in to the current United team with Ole at the wheel?

Aguero would score 20 plus goals a season wherever he plays. He is that good of a player. Some players are system players, some players would adapt to any system and be world class in any side. Jesus is the former, Aguero is the latter.

 

[SebastianBlue]

How can you judge someone's opinion as "correct" from their lifestyle? There is no "right or wrong" opinion and it's arrogant and ignorant to even state that. People just have different opinions. That's life.

Some people at the club don't rate David Silva and Kevin De Bruyne. That's not to say I'm going to say I don't know how they get along in day to day Iife with such an opinion, because that is their opinion.

I just say look at the facts, Juventus won the league with a bigger margin than they did last year due to the goals Ronaldo has scored. It's only his first season, I would say give the man some time.


Aguero would score 20 plus goals a season wherever he plays. He is that good of a player. Some players are system players, some players would adapt to any system and be world class in any side. Jesus is the former, Aguero is the latter.

We’ll definitely have to agree to disagree in this instance.

 

[Sleeping_Easy]

So you cut out positive debate by stating ‘you don’t care how old he is’???

The fact of the matter is his stats are superior on every level at the same age, domestically and in Europe...

Just for arguments sake

Aguero 102/235 appearances
Jesus 73/182 appearances

Aguero did that over 7 seasons, Jesus over 5 and predominantly as the second choice striker whilst here..

It astounds me that people can’t see what we have on our hands with him, the debate revolves around loyalty, not the reality, which given the same time as Kun, on that trajectory, he breaks his record.... but hey, he’s shit at offsides so let’s look elsewhere..

I just don't understand the stick Jesus gets on here. We have Brazils number 9 and yet people seem to think he's nothing more than a decent sub

 

[Topbins]

The link says nothing about Pep refusing to sign Pogba whilst he was at Juve before he got to United. That's the period I'm referring to. Pogba was hailed as "the heir to the thone of Yaya" and we were clearly linked to him until we dropped a message to the media that he was too expensive.

My point stands that we badly needed a world class CM at the time and the thought of having Silva and KDB there was ridiculous at the time but proved to be a masterstroke.

I don't know.

The way we set up pinning teams in I'm not sure a yaya replacement was required. We had fern sitting and kdb and silva in front creating. Further yaya in his pomp was an all rounder with frightening pace pace is something Pogba is sorely lacking. I don't think he can cope in the prem never mind a city team largely as a result of his lack of pace in CM, and wanting to much time andvtake too many touches on the ball.

 

[mattcity5]

Gabby has been through a few stages with us. When signed he was desperate to impress and lively, to the point where he started as much as Sergio. Then from what I remember he had an injury.

When he came back he played a more basic game and cut out some of the tricks, but did OK. He seemed to have lost confidence a little and as a result of this and Sergio's form/ability, he ended up on the bench a lot.

After being out of the side injured again, this time he seems to have come back more like his original self. The twists and turns are back and in the last month or so it looked more like he was enjoying himself.

He will at some point in the coming season get a run of games. It may even be from the start of the season. But I am sure that if he gets that run while his confidence is up there will be no looking back this time. He's used to the league, he's grown and is stronger. I'd say that this will be Sergio's last season as first choice and after that it's all Gabby's.

However, with the potential for injuries etc you can never be sure. And yes, he really needs to stop being offside quite so often...

 

[ojeme]

Are you actually a city fan??? If you don’t think pep has had a major influence on raz then you are unbelievably strange and naive

It beats the mind really. @Topbins clearly cannot see the difference in Sterling who has moved from a very good player to a top 2 or 3 EPL player bearing in mind that the trajectory in his movement hasn't always been upwards between the time he played in that SSS (Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling) attack and now.

Your right.
Spot in actually.
The point I'm making is that Pep ain't plucking these players from Leyton Orient, the ability is already there more often than not we are talking seasoned or regular internationals which Sterling was when we bought him. He has improved under Pep but there is a context to it, one of which is that he was class prior to us buying him. This is perhaps the reason why we spent 50 million on him.

Pochettino is famed for growing talents. I'll give you that but what has he won? Nothing! Even in Arsenal/Chelsea's darkest moments, they have some silverware to show for it. And please do not mention VVD or Becker who were established stars and went for record sums. Klopp is a fantastic manager but I'd put it to you that if Pep had managed to be trophyless or only won Carabao in his second season, he would have been long gone unlike Klopp who has had a lot of time on his side despite winning nothing up until recently.

I say all this because you are trying to discredit Pep's work. Pellers was an is a good man but did you witness this level of dominance with City? Also what is the rate of success of his signings compared to Pep? If Pep was available today there is hardly any club that wouldn't jostle to sign him up. He wins but he also wins well playing with a fantastic style. Jose, Conte had wins but their wins even bored their owner to death.

If you mention Pep having money, have you mentioned Klopp having time? More money comes with more expectation and th attendant pressure.

Give it a rest fella.

 

[ojeme]

I don't know.

The way we set up pinning teams in I'm not sure a yaya replacement was required. We had fern sitting and kdb and silva in front creating. Further yaya in his pomp was an all rounder with frightening pace pace is something Pogba is sorely lacking. I don't think he can cope in the prem never mind a city team largely as a result of his lack of pace in CM, and wanting to much time andvtake too many touches on the ball.

Well that's not the point though.The point is that we desperately needed a Yaya replacement that summer and we can only point to using KDB and Silva there as a brilliant idea with the help of hindsight. Back then it was ridiculous to suggest that.

 

[bigstanhibbert]

Aguero would score 20 plus goals a season wherever he plays. He is that good of a player. Some players are system players, some players would adapt to any system and be world class in any side. Jesus is the former, Aguero is the latter.[/QUOTE]

Think you should check PL website for 2012/13 and 2013/14 - all depends if they are fit and/or first choice. Young Gabby is a wonderful player and should be our first choice in next couple of years.

 

[Zin 'messiah' Zimmer]

So when I bring Harry Kane's goal record to the table it's not good enough and Son is a better option? I honestly don't think that 45 goals in 99 games in this City side is that good. Put Shaun Goater in there and he'd probably score 60+ and he's nowhere near good enough for this City side.
Jesus plays in statistically the best side ever in the English League. Aguero played in a team going through a transitional period at the start of his City career.

In my opinion Gabriel Jesus lacks the personality to be the number one striker at the Club. I know he's still young but even at 19-22 you can often see in young kids that they have what the top strikers do. Give me another Alan Shearer/Aguero any day over a Jesus. I hope I'm wrong, but I just can't see it.

Where did I knock Kane??

You’re getting it from all directions so I think you’re getting a little muddled, pal

Oh, just to add, I’d be more than confident in predicting that at least 40% of those games are from the bench, thus a flawed argument!

 

[ctid1894]

If you don't think Ronaldo would make a difference to any side in the world, this is where the conversation ends...

You do know he is one of the greatest players to ever play the game, don't you?

He has made a difference, a negative one at Juventus, from Juventus fans themselves. The club backed themselves into a corner with the signing and have lost Allegri, who had done an amazing job building them back up. At his age Ronaldo is a liability, just like Zabaleta/Toure were with us at the end. He’s cost an absolute fortune in transfer fees and wages, none of which can be recovered and he’s divided the directors & management.

I fully appreciate everything he has done, he’s been the second best player in world football for a long time but that’s in the past, not the present. Madrid wouldn’t have let him go if he was still performing to his best. He’s not finished, but he’s not far short.

 

[ctid1894]

How can you judge someone's opinion as "correct" from their lifestyle? There is no "right or wrong" opinion and it's arrogant and ignorant to even state that. People just have different opinions. That's life.

Some people at the club don't rate David Silva and Kevin De Bruyne. That's not to say I'm going to say I don't know how they get along in day to day Iife with such an opinion, because that is their opinion.

I just say look at the facts, Juventus won the league with a bigger margin than they did last year due to the goals Ronaldo has scored. It's only his first season, I would say give the man some time.

When you work with people on a daily basis and talk about football on a daily basis for a good few years, have been to multiple games together (here, in Italy, Germany and France) and have similar opinions and judgements on teams and players then you know you can trust their judgement, that’s how life works.

There will always be attention seekers, as you’re proving very well.

 

[ctid1894]

Well that's not the point though.The point is that we desperately needed a Yaya replacement that summer and we can only point to using KDB and Silva there as a brilliant idea with the help of hindsight. Back then it was ridiculous to suggest that.

That’s a complete lie, there was a good few posters on here back then who hated Toure and were absolutely adamant that a replacement wasn’t required. As much as they got hammered by some, it’s proven to be incredibly accurate.

 

[Topbins]

It beats the mind really. @Topbins clearly cannot see the difference in Sterling who has moved from a very good player to a top 2 or 3 EPL player bearing in mind that the trajectory in his movement hasn't always been upwards between the time he played in that SSS (Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling) attack and now.


Pochettino is famed for growing talents. I'll give you that but what has he won? Nothing! Even in Arsenal/Chelsea's darkest moments, they have some silverware to show for it. And please do not mention VVD or Becker who were established stars and went for record sums. Klopp is a fantastic manager but I'd put it to you that if Pep had managed to be trophyless or only won Carabao in his second season, he would have been long gone unlike Klopp who has had a lot of time on his side despite winning nothing up until recently.

I say all this because you are trying to discredit Pep's work. Pellers was an is a good man but did you witness this level of dominance with City? Also what is the rate of success of his signings compared to Pep? If Pep was available today there is hardly any club that wouldn't jostle to sign him up. He wins but he also wins well playing with a fantastic style. Jose, Conte had wins but their wins even bored their owner to death.

If you mention Pep having money, have you mentioned Klopp having time? More money comes with more expectation and th attendant pressure.

Give it a rest fella.

The difference is that Im not that partisan about City that I begin to elevate any of are managers tomythical status. I leave the poems and all that stuff to Utd and or Liverpool.


Peps great love him, made a significant difference but if you don't want to acknowledge that many of these players were finely tuned seasoned international players before they came to City, that's okay, we can disagree.

Fern didn't just turn into a world class DM, when Pep arrived. He was excelling at Shaktar years before as an attacking CM. Mancini converted him to DM, when he arrived at City to allow Yaya to push, Pellers continued the trend and the rest is history.

Pep has his been influential for individual players but the progression of a lot of are players and indeed the team has been for me driven by more factors such as the players actually being already very good or Pep identifying players he knows will be able to carry out his tactics.

That's not rocket science.

We also have an intelligent group now who collectively understand the evolution in are style of play and each others role within it.
But if u disagree and seemed to think the likes of BSilva and debruyne weren't world class before Pep.

Its okay.

 

[Larry Stranger]

The difference is that Im not that partisan about City that I begin to elevate any of are managers tomythical status. I leave the poems and all that stuff to Utd and or Liverpool.


Peps great love him, made a significant difference but if you don't want to acknowledge that many of these players were finely tuned seasoned international players before they came to City, that's okay, we can disagree.

Fern didn't just turn into a world class DM, when Pep arrived. He was excelling at Shaktar years before as an attacking CM. Mancini converted him to DM, when he arrived at City to allow Yaya to push, Pellers continued the trend and the rest is history.

Pep has his been influential for individual players but the progression of a lot of are players and indeed the team has been for me driven by more factors such as the players actually being already very good or Pep identifying players he knows will be able to carry out his tactics.

That's not rocket science.

We also have an intelligent group now who collectively understand the evolution in are style of play and each others role within it.
But if u disagree and seemed to think the likes of BSilva and debruyne weren't world class before Pep.

Its okay.

Dinho was bought in Pellers first season. He never played under Mancini.

 

[Dreadzone]

Your right.
Spot in actually.
The point I'm making is that Pep ain't plucking these players from Leyton Orient, the ability is already there more often than not we are talking seasoned or regular internationals which Sterling was when we bought him. He has improved under Pep but there is a context to it, one of which is that he was class prior to us buying him. This is perhaps the reason why we spent 50 million on him.

Hi Topbins. Going through your recent We know holiday not before

That first sentence is just hyperbole. The team is not weakened let alone considerably when jesus starts instead of aguero. If one thing the past season should've shown or taught anyone it would be that its the system that makes this side more so than any specific players' quality(outside of probably ederson).

Going into the season if anyone told you de-bruyne would be missing for large portions of the season through injury and that fernandinho would also miss most of the business end of it through injury would you have envisioned a treble winning season. A team that went through most of the season fighting for 4 competitions with zinchecko as its main left back.

Now does the side lose something without the likes of de-bruyne, fernandinho and even sane in the side, yes without a doubt. But does that make it weakened in any considerable way, no. The style of play never changes, they just find another way to dominate and create chances.

Aguero is a world class player and the current version of him is the best he's ever been, He's always been a deadly finisher and poacher in the box with immense dribbling ability but his link up play, pressing and awareness have all improved immensely from what they were before pep arrived. He's rightly cemented himself as the 1st choice striker this season after a period of uncertainty and him getting adapted to peps style of play during his first 2 seasons. Ironically despite still scoring at a good rate pep seemed to trust jesus more in his second season and there were some questioning(including even me) if he would ever adapt to the way pep wanted him to play which changed this season with him being the all-rounder pep wants.

That brings it to my next point. Gabriel jesus is not yet the same quality as aguero but is still a very good young player with intelligence and awareness of space beyond his years. That combined with his high work rate, good link-up play and technical ability means the team loses little if anything when he starts and is certainly not weakened. What if I told you the team scores at around the same rate of goals regardless of who starts between them would it be a surprise to you.

Basically to summarise, the team could win 5-0 with jesus starting and he may score just the one goal but would still be an important cog of the system due to his intelligence and movement allowing more space for the other attacking players to contribute more while in another instance with the same 5-0 scoreline but with aguero starting, aguero might score 4 due to his natural poaching ability and finishing. The team would win both games, the two players would contribute in their own separate ways to that victory and the fact that aguero scored the 4 goals compared to jesus' 1 doesn't mean the team were weakened as a result. It just means one has other qualities that benefits the team and system in its own way.

Not only do I believe jesus is a more than capable understudy, I also believe at just 22 he has a lot of room to improve where he would be one of the best strikers in the world and lead the team to many trophies. I don't get this idea that he's not good enough and the club needs to spend big to replace aguero.

great post!