Jo Swinson

urban genie

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 May 2008
Messages
35,043
Looks like the favourite to become next Lib Dem leader.

Voting record is hardly liberal or progressive, but then niether was cables.

Don't know much about her tbf, but with them on a bounce atm good appointmemt or not? I have no idea honestly.

Or does it not matter, atm people will choose anyone but lab/con so will who is their leader be a factor?
 
I heard Ed Davey on the radio I think yesterday give a fucking car crash interview ..... every awkward question about what they did in coalition when he was a minister was mostly answered with errr........errr.............errr........ that wasn't my idea.......I suspect he too has a Nick Clegg sized, shaped and weight of monkey on his back over the coalition and what they did so possibly electing him would see their gains reversed?
 
112e4ir.jpg
 
The thing is Brexit is bollocks and was a totally unnecessary diversión from what needs to happen in the UK.
As such everything has turned upside down and a party who no one has been interested in for years are now flavour of the month.
 
Looks like the favourite to become next Lib Dem leader.

Voting record is hardly liberal or progressive, but then niether was cables.

Don't know much about her tbf, but with them on a bounce atm good appointmemt or not? I have no idea honestly.

Or does it not matter, atm people will choose anyone but lab/con so will who is their leader be a factor?

Last para if anything. Party leaders are overrated in our system anyway. They’re not where it’s at as much as might be imagined
 
Does she still support tuition fees at their current rates and austerity as the supine coalition went with? Is she happy with what is happening to the NHS and social care and education etc? I only ask because as a secretary of state in the coalition cabinet she would be as well telling us now before the press drag her view out of her in a rather inevitable and unedifying spectacle
 
Looks like the favourite to become next Lib Dem leader.

Voting record is hardly liberal or progressive, but then niether was cables.

Don't know much about her tbf, but with them on a bounce atm good appointmemt or not? I have no idea honestly.

Or does it not matter, atm people will choose anyone but lab/con so will who is their leader be a factor?


Tory lite
 
Pmsl even Lib Dem’s get called Tories in here.

It’s like 70”s Russia for some of you.
 
To be honest her record in coalition is hardly liberal or centrist, and her voting record since sketchy

I honestly find this “let’s blame the Lib Dem’s for working with the Tories” completely odd.

They weren’t the larger party in the coalition with the most control and they agreed to go into government because they felt they could make a positive difference.

Of course they had to drop many of their own policies and they had to compromise significantly because the Tories were more powerful and they were running the country with the them, and on occasion they will have voted with the Tories but they held them back from being too harsh with austerity.

The Lib Dem’s being there was better for the poor than them not being there, 100%.

It’s the purist view of only dealing or compromising with the left that is putting so many off Labour currently.
 
I honestly find this “let’s blame the Lib Dem’s for working with the Tories” completely odd.

They weren’t the larger party in the coalition with the most control and they agreed to go into government because they felt they could make a positive difference.

Of course they had to drop many of their own policies and they had to compromise significantly because the Tories were more powerful and they were running the country with the them, and on occasion they will have voted with the Tories but they held them back from being too harsh with austerity.

The Lib Dem’s being there was better for the poor than them not being there, 100%.

It’s the purist view of only dealing or compromising with the left that is putting so many off Labour currently.


Noet to do with compromising with the left, as soon as the tories were showing they were gonna be cunts the Lib dems should have shown some back bone and pulled the plug on the sorry mess, instead thet facilitated what has gone on since and threw away their ideals for a smidgen of power.

In fact I think politically I despise them more than the tories as at least you know what a tory is, anyone including those in labour who voted for disability cuts, bedroom tax, nd austerity betrayed their centre or left values and don't deserve the publics respect.

And it seems most agreed with me right up till this year, cable has done well using remain to get his party in the ringagain , but without it they were a dead duck in the publics eyes.
 
Last edited:
Noet to do with compromising with the left, as soon as the tories were showing they were gonna be cunts the Lib dems should have shown some back bone and pulled the plug on the sorry mess, instead thet facilitated what has gone on since and threw away their ideals for a smidgen of power.

In fact I think politically I despise them more than the tories as at least you know what a tory is, anyone including those in labour who voted for disability cuts, bedroom tax, nd austerity betrayed their centre or left values and don't deserve the publics respect.

What was your alternative to reducing the deficit?

I’m not saying I agree with the harshness of austerity but I cannot think of many alternatives, if any to keeping our economy going and getting the deficit down, so I’m all ears.

My view is that the Lib Dem’s agreed but tried to reign the Tories in for going too hard, too quickly.

Also the bit underlined is no longer true, Brexit, the Tories and Corbyn/Momentum have allowed them a second chance at it.
 
What was your alternative to reducing the deficit?

I’m not saying I agree with the harshness of austerity but I cannot think of many alternatives, if any to keeping our economy going and getting the deficit down, so I’m all ears.

My view is that the Lib Dem’s agreed but tried to reign the Tories in for going too hard, too quickly.

Also the bit underlined is no longer true, Brexit, the Tories and Corbyn/Momentum have allowed them a second chance at it.


History has proven countries that went the opposite and introduced fiscal stimulus into their failing economies weathered the economic crisis much better and even the coalition froze austerity after two years and the economy grew then in 2013, only to tighten again and see it slow back down.

Even America abandoned austerity quite quickly and only the UK still claims it was the right idea.

It is also now taken that centrists and some of left austerity at first as free market economic policies and statistics gave the conclusion it was the right option, yet most soon realised it was a failed ideaearly on while the lib dems carried on supporting it for 3 more years

Even recent IMF reports declared austerity over fiscal stimulous was the wrong course of action after the crash, I was in favour of fiscal stimulus then and still think it would have been the right cpurse, making your consumers poorer and less likely to invest or spend won't boost an economyyet we did it anyway and the lib dems amd some labour I may nodded it's approval.

2010 till now is the most shamesfull modern part of our political history.
 
Last edited:
History has proven countries that went the opposite and introduced fiscal stimulus into their failing economies weathered the economic crisis much better and even the coalition froze austerity after two years and the economy grew then in 2013, only to tighten again and see it slow back down.

Even America abandoned austerity quite quickly and only the UK still claims it was the right idea.

It is also now taken that centrists and some of left austerity at first as free market economic policies and statistics gave the conclusion it was the right option, yet most soon realised it was a failed ideaearly on while the lib dems carried on supporting it for 3 more years

Even recent IMF reports declared austerity over fiscal stimulous was the wrong course of action after the crash, I was in favour of fiscal stimulus then and still think it would have been the right cpurse, making your consumers poorer and less likely to invest or spend won't boost an economyyet we did it anyway and the lib dems amd some labour I may nodded it's approval.

2010 till now is the most shamesfull modern part of our political history.

I’m not necessarily an advocate of Tory policy or austerity but I admit I’m no expert either and what I post on this topic is often plagiarism.

And I have read reports and many conflict each other in terms of some are saying austerity was necessary and some saying fiscal stimulus. From my understanding I felt that the UK didn’t have much choice.

I would ask if the different structures to the US and other nations and their percentage of public spending traditionally, compared with the UK, meant that they could adopt a different principle due to the burden of not having institutions like the NHS, for example?

I’m not convinced the Tories chose austerity merely to punish people either, I don’t subscribe to the notion that they’re all evil bastards that hate anyone who doesn’t own land. They are definitely now incredibly incompetent but that’s another topic.
 
Just on newsnight, god she's agobshite and a liar.

Calling a no confidence motion tomorrow so she can call out labour if they don't do the same, even though the timing of the day after is the wprst possible time.

Secondly going on about the remain campaign, she never attended one remain rally, never called for ramain on social media throughout the referendum campaign and appeared once on telly, yet makes out she was at the forefront of the remain campaign.

Fuck sake even jezza campaigned more and he wasn't fully commited
 
I’m not necessarily an advocate of Tory policy or austerity but I admit I’m no expert either and what I post on this topic is often plagiarism.

And I have read reports and many conflict each other in terms of some are saying austerity was necessary and some saying fiscal stimulus. From my understanding I felt that the UK didn’t have much choice.

I would ask if the different structures to the US and other nations and their percentage of public spending traditionally, compared with the UK, meant that they could adopt a different principle due to the burden of not having institutions like the NHS, for example?

I’m not convinced the Tories chose austerity merely to punish people either, I don’t subscribe to the notion that they’re all evil bastards that hate anyone who doesn’t own land. They are definitely now incredibly incompetent but that’s another topic.

It is posts like yours Ban that allowed the Tories to get away with the restructuring of society. I don't mean that in a nasty way, I mean it as you admit you are no expert and falling for the "we didn't have a choice" rhetoric.

Austerity was purely ideological, it had no basis in economics and it was sold to the electorate in such a simplistic manner it did to be fair border on genius. The notion that running a household is like running a nation is at the core of neo-liberal madness. The Lib Dem Orange Bookists of which Swinson was one were all advocates of social Liberalism with an extreme laissez faire economic approach which was not that different from Cameron, who to be fair was probably to the left of the Orange Bookists economically.

Austerity was a tool used to restructure the state and lower the percentage spend of GDP on public services to American levels. When you consider we have the NHS and the Americans don't then cuts had to come from somewhere to achieve that level of spend. It was ideal to dress it up as austerity in order to balance the books. A feat that has rarely been achieved by our country and one you do not need to achieve as long as there is growth. Austerity stifled growth though and investment fell which meant you had the double whammy of cuts and underinvestment. Was it evil, that depends as the cuts fell the harshest on those with the least and those who relied on the public services the most. If using austerity hurts those with the least then yes it can be considered evil in my opinion because I am sure you remember the phrase "we are all in this together" which of course meant that the rich got tax cuts, so everyone got a cut of some sort.

The problem with cuts is that it sucks consumption out of the market, those with the least have the highest propensity to spend and if you take from those people then it is the local shopkeeper that suffers first and the knock on effect from that spirals upwards and overall demand falls. The Tory answer was supply side measures supported by the Orange bookists and involved policies to increase competitiveness and competition. For example, privatisation, deregulation, lower income tax rates,cutting welfare and reduced power of trade unions. All classical Orange Book tools that appealed directly to Tory free market instincts.

Interventionist supply side policies such as education/training were cut and housing supply dimished as investment was reduced which added to the stifling of growth. IDS tried his idiotic welfare for work policies which were fucking idiotic anyway but classic supply side stuff. The only real acknowledgment to growth was HS2 which is a supply side measure as investment in infrastructure is classical supply side too. The problem with supply side economics is we had a recession at the same time which reduced competitiveness and productivity slumped, wages stagnated and that increased the effects of austerity. The likes of nurses have not had a wage rise for years, in real terms their wages have declined which also hits demand and the vicious circle of austerity magnifies the effects.

I know this is a simplistic answer and it is a long time since I studied Economics and I am getting old, but I hope you get the jist of it. In simple terms my argument is austerity is and was a fucking nonsense but sadly the electorate bought it, because the argument for it was sold to them so well.
 
It is posts like yours Ban that allowed the Tories to get away with the restructuring of society. I don't mean that in a nasty way, I mean it as you admit you are no expert and falling for the "we didn't have a choice" rhetoric.

Austerity was purely ideological, it had no basis in economics and it was sold to the electorate in such a simplistic manner it did to be fair border on genius. The notion that running a household is like running a nation is at the core of neo-liberal madness. The Lib Dem Orange Bookists of which Swinson was one were all advocates of social Liberalism with an extreme laissez faire economic approach which was not that different from Cameron, who to be fair was probably to the left of the Orange Bookists economically.

Austerity was a tool used to restructure the state and lower the percentage spend of GDP on public services to American levels. When you consider we have the NHS and the Americans don't then cuts had to come from somewhere to achieve that level of spend. It was ideal to dress it up as austerity in order to balance the books. A feat that has rarely been achieved by our country and one you do not need to achieve as long as there is growth. Austerity stifled growth though and investment fell which meant you had the double whammy of cuts and underinvestment. Was it evil, that depends as the cuts fell the harshest on those with the least and those who relied on the public services the most. If using austerity hurts those with the least then yes it can be considered evil in my opinion because I am sure you remember the phrase "we are all in this together" which of course meant that the rich got tax cuts, so everyone got a cut of some sort.

The problem with cuts is that it sucks consumption out of the market, those with the least have the highest propensity to spend and if you take from those people then it is the local shopkeeper that suffers first and the knock on effect from that spirals upwards and overall demand falls. The Tory answer was supply side measures supported by the Orange bookists and involved policies to increase competitiveness and competition. For example, privatisation, deregulation, lower income tax rates,cutting welfare and reduced power of trade unions. All classical Orange Book tools that appealed directly to Tory free market instincts.

Interventionist supply side policies such as education/training were cut and housing supply dimished as investment was reduced which added to the stifling of growth. IDS tried his idiotic welfare for work policies which were fucking idiotic anyway but classic supply side stuff. The only real acknowledgment to growth was HS2 which is a supply side measure as investment in infrastructure is classical supply side too. The problem with supply side economics is we had a recession at the same time which reduced competitiveness and productivity slumped, wages stagnated and that increased the effects of austerity. The likes of nurses have not had a wage rise for years, in real terms their wages have declined which also hits demand and the vicious circle of austerity magnifies the effects.

I know this is a simplistic answer and it is a long time since I studied Economics and I am getting old, but I hope you get the jist of it. In simple terms my argument is austerity is and was a fucking nonsense but sadly the electorate bought it, because the argument for it was sold to them so well.

What’s the alternative though, to continue spending and hope those at the bottom spend enough as consumers?

What if they didn’t because they knew there had been a global recession or they had lost their jobs?

Taking from those worse off is incredibly harsh and it’s been a very bad time for the country but I see that Cameron wanted to ensure business didn’t suffer to greatly. Had we not embarked on the utter madness of Brexit, we’d now have the deficit down to nil, be in a period of record growth and things would be looking massively up.

I’m not a fan of austerity, I appreciate the damage it’s done but those that criticise it the most only face very vague alternatives.

If you think I don’t understand it the explain it to me and the forum so we know for definite that there was a clear alternative not taken in 2010.

The all in it together was nonsense of course but the least said about Cameron and what he did in 2016, the better.
 
What’s the alternative though, to continue spending and hope those at the bottom spend enough as consumers?

What if they didn’t because they knew there had been a global recession or they had lost their jobs?

Taking from those worse off is incredibly harsh and it’s been a very bad time for the country but I see that Cameron wanted to ensure business didn’t suffer to greatly. Had we not embarked on the utter madness of Brexit, we’d now have the deficit down to nil, be in a period of record growth and things would be looking massively up.

I’m not a fan of austerity, I appreciate the damage it’s done but those that criticise it the most only face very vague alternatives.

If you think I don’t understand it the explain it to me and the forum so we know for definite that there was a clear alternative not taken in 2010.

The all in it together was nonsense of course but the least said about Cameron and what he did in 2016, the better.

The alternative was investment, in effect spend your way out of recession. I know that sounds counter intuitative but investment leads to the multiplier effect and every £1 spent creates maybe £10 in the economy as it goes down the supply chain. For instance, you invest and decide to say build a house, that means you employ people who receive wages who spend them at the local shop, who makes a profit and invests in more stock from the wholesaler who buys more stock from the supplier who employs more people that means less money spent on welfare to produce the goods, who then earn wages to buy the house.

I know that is very simplistic, but it does create growth.

Neo-liberals assume the market always ends in equilibrium and provides what is needed, but in times of depression or stagnation standard rules have to be suspended and require market intervention. This is where the ideology comes in, the Tories and the Lib Dem Orange Bookists believed in the untrammelled power of the market and that if it was left to its own devices it would return to equilibrium, Keynes thought that not to be the case and that some state intervention was required.

At the moment we are at a stage where austerity has shrunk the market and we have what Keynes called the underemployment equilibrium, this can be shown by the amount of zero hours contracts etc.

There is more, but I am reaching into 30 fucking years ago to recall this and I am a senile old fucker ;))
 
The alternative was investment, in effect spend your way out of recession. I know that sounds counter intuitative but investment leads to the multiplier effect and every £1 spent creates maybe £10 in the economy as it goes down the supply chain. For instance, you invest and decide to say build a house, that means you employ people who receive wages who spend them at the local shop, who makes a profit and invests in more stock from the wholesaler who buys more stock from the supplier who employs more people that means less money spent on welfare to produce the goods, who then earn wages to buy the house.

I know that is very simplistic, but it does create growth.

Neo-liberals assume the market always ends in equilibrium and provides what is needed, but in times of depression or stagnation standard rules have to be suspended and require market intervention. This is where the ideology comes in, the Tories and the Lib Dem Orange Bookists believed in the untrammelled power of the market and that if it was left to its own devices it would return to equilibrium, Keynes thought that not to be the case and that some state intervention was required.

At the moment we are at a stage where austerity has shrunk the market and we have what Keynes called the underemployment equilibrium, this can be shown by the amount of zero hours contracts etc.

There is more, but I am reaching into 30 fucking years ago to recall this and I am a senile old fucker ;))

It does sound very over simplistic and too easy to do. Surely every single government would always do it if it’s successful? As they’d never be voted out with those policies.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top