Jo Swinson

[meltonblue]

It is no surprise, the Lib Dems have far more in common with the Tories than they do any other party.

Took this from WIKI as its pretty accurate

"Liberal conservatism is a political ideology that combines elements of conservatism and economic liberalism. Liberal conservatives believe in the free market and laissez-faire economic policies combined with traditional conservative values, such as the belief in natural inequality, the importance of religion, and the value of traditional morality."

As the Lib Dems are now seemingly over run by the Orange Book faction, they have moved away from traditional liberal values which were originally more leftist which of course makes them the natural home for those on the left of the Tory party simply because the Tory party has become so right wing dominated.

I have always been of the opinion that the Liberals are not the centrists that people make them out to be. A true centrist would be comfortable taking the extreme's of both the left and right in forming an ideological base, the current Lib Dems in their refusal to work with Corbyn show they are not even prepared to work with the centre left but are comfortable working with centre right.

Not sure I agree with that, their last manifesto had a lot more in common with Labours than it did with the tories.

 

[Rascal]

Not sure I agree with that, their last manifesto had a lot more in common with Labours than it did with the tories.

Socially perhaps, economically they are to the right of the Tories or I should the Orange bookists are to the right of the Tories.

 

[Ban-jani]

Socially perhaps, economically they are to the right of the Tories or I should the Orange bookists are to the right of the Tories.

Which is fundamentally against my political position, however I do feel if they were to magically gain a majority, this country would move further to the left in all areas.

The Orange Book-ists do not have control over the manifesto and even those that do have influence, they aren’t seemingly including it in their policies.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Socially perhaps, economically they are to the right of the Tories or I should the Orange bookists are to the right of the Tories.

This is pure BS. Brexit is a hard right play. It is the precursor to extreme cuts to taxes, social services and workers rights. Lib Dems are fighting it. They have a range of policies that are a mix of center left and center right, many are very close to Labour policy. If you think that is to the right of the tories then you are lost.

 

[Rascal]

This is pure BS. Brexit is a hard right play. It is the precursor to extreme cuts to taxes, social services and workers rights. Lib Dems are fighting it. They have a range of policies that are a mix of center left and center right, many are very close to Labour policy. If you think that is to the right of the tories then you are lost.

I wasn't speaking in Brexit terms, it was an overview of how I perceive there political stance.

Economically, they are miles away from Labour, they are pro-free market for a start, supported austerity under the guise of the coalition. Economically they are bedfellows, socially they are liberal, probably more Blairite/Cameron than Socialist.

In Brexit terms they are pro-remain, that makes them pro-capitalist by default. The EU is a capitalist club and was one of the reasons I could not vote remain.

 

[meltonblue]

Socially perhaps, economically they are to the right of the Tories or I should the Orange bookists are to the right of the Tories.

Some of them individually might well be (closer aligned rather to the right). Again though, the manifesto was more similar to Labour on taxes, borrowing and investment than it was the tories.

The problem at the minute is more people are into identity politics than actual policies and the main parties are reacting to it. The Lib Dem’s aren’t not willing to work with corbyn because of his policies, more that they’re not wanting to risk losing all the voters that personally have a problem with him (which is more than there should be), both from the tories and labour.

I do think with this though if it comes to a position where they have to to stop no deal, they will back Corbyn. They’re right to say the Tory rebels still won’t though anyway.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

I wasn't speaking in Brexit terms, it was an overview of how I perceive there political stance.

Economically, they are miles away from Labour, they are pro-free market for a start, supported austerity under the guise of the coalition. Economically they are bedfellows, socially they are liberal, probably more Blairite/Cameron than Socialist.

In Brexit terms they are pro-remain, that makes them pro-capitalist by default. The EU is a capitalist club and was one of the reasons I could not vote remain.

How is that leave vote working out for you now?

 

[Ban-jani]

I wasn't speaking in Brexit terms, it was an overview of how I perceive there political stance.

Economically, they are miles away from Labour, they are pro-free market for a start, supported austerity under the guise of the coalition. Economically they are bedfellows, socially they are liberal, probably more Blairite/Cameron than Socialist.

In Brexit terms they are pro-remain, that makes them pro-capitalist by default. The EU is a capitalist club and was one of the reasons I could not vote remain.

Blair and Cameron have fundamental differences still and I think the LibDems are somewhere in between the both of them.

Clegg often spoke about him trying to reign the Tories in, Cameron recently spoke of his wish to make austerity harsher and austerity was ramped up as soon as Cameron won his majority.

Blair, as a contrast, invested heavily in public services, Jack Straw had totally different social views to Howard and May, who came in either side of New Labour. Straw was appalled at the Tory’s view of immigration and Blair agreed with him. They were too soft if anything, certainly on asylum applications, the general view from inside the cabinet was that neither cared about immigration.

This is totally different to May’s “hostile environment”, under Cameron.

Blair tried to introduce fair capitalism, tried to end elitism and denounced Britain would be the perfect meritocracy. Cameron hit the poorest the hardest, whilst he tried to keep big business a success during the recovery.

I can understand from a communist’s perspective how both look incredibly similar, they’re both not far from the centre, but if you look at the finer detail, Blair and Cameron’s Governments has huge differences both economically and socially.

 

[Rascal]

How is that leave vote working out for you now?

I didn't vote leave as there was no way I could ever vote for anything that Farage was involved with.

 

[Rascal]

Blair and Cameron have fundamental differences still and I think the LibDems are somewhere in between the both of them.

Clegg often spoke about him trying to reign the Tories in, Cameron recently spoke of his wish to make austerity harsher and austerity was ramped up as soon as Cameron won his majority.

Blair, as a contrast, invested heavily in public services, Jack Straw had totally different social views to Howard and May, who came in either side of New Labour. Straw was appalled at the Tory’s view of immigration and Blair agreed with him. They were too soft if anything, certainly on asylum applications, the general view from inside the cabinet was that neither cared about immigration.

This is totally different to May’s “hostile environment”, under Cameron.

Blair tried to introduce fair capitalism, tried to end elitism and denounced Britain would be the perfect meritocracy. Cameron hit the poorest the hardest, whilst he tried to keep big business a success during the recovery.

I can understand from a communist’s perspective how both look incredibly similar, they’re both not far from the centre, but if you look at the finer detail, Blair and Cameron’s Governments has huge differences both economically and socially.

Loving the Communist perspective point, has Georgie Porgie been giving you lessons :))

Blair, Cameron and Swinson could quite easily exist in the same party. They are the definition of being close to either side of the left/right tipping point. Centrist parties by nature though are willing to take the extremes of left and right and coalesce them into an ideology. That political compass thingy that gets posted every now and again is I think a fair indicator, it got me spot on anyway.

 

[Ban-jani]

Loving the Communist perspective point, has Georgie Porgie been giving you lessons :))

Blair, Cameron and Swinson could quite easily exist in the same party. They are the definition of being close to either side of the left/right tipping point. Centrist parties by nature though are willing to take the extremes of left and right and coalesce them into an ideology. That political compass thingy that gets posted every now and again is I think a fair indicator, it got me spot on anyway.

They could, I agree but then again Blair and Corbyn existed in the same party for decades.

I always try and look at the debate from the person I’m talking to’s perspective :-)

You are Communist, aren’t you?

 

[The perfect fumble]

Yellow Tories.

I remember in the Blair years there was the odd Tory MP who jumped ship to New Labour and there was disquiet in the party as to whether these converts genuinely embraced Labour values.

No such disquiet with the Lib Dems.

 

[urban genie]

Loving the Communist perspective point, has Georgie Porgie been giving you lessons :))

Blair, Cameron and Swinson could quite easily exist in the same party. They are the definition of being close to either side of the left/right tipping point. Centrist parties by nature though are willing to take the extremes of left and right and coalesce them into an ideology. That political compass thingy that gets posted every now and again is I think a fair indicator, it got me spot on anyway.

Blairs was a neo liberal model with a bit of social democracy otherwise the party would have tore itself apart as the majority in it wouldn't have supported it if they hadn't done the things you mention.

At the same time it was a short sighted solution, much like conservatism and liberalism is so thete was no long term plan to fix society.

Making london and the financial services key to how we grew as a country has left many behind.

Brexit can be traced back to the 80s, 90s and 00s where successive governments abandoned industrial britain with not enough replacements for the workplaces lost or sold off


And communities left behind.

 

[Rascal]

You are Communist, aren’t you?

No, I see myself as a Socialist.

 

[blueinsa]

No, I see myself as a Socialist.

Pretty certain I've seen you claim you would vote communist if they had someone standing where you live Rascal?

 

[Ban-jani]

No, I see myself as a Socialist.

Fair enough.

I did call you a Communist in good faith and it wasn’t a dig.

You once told me in person you were communist but that was many years ago.

 

[Ban-jani]

Blairs was a neo liberal model with a bit of social democracy

What you’re really just saying is that it was a centrist government as he picked certain neoliberal policies and certain social democratic policies and applied what he thought was the best policy to each specific area.

Blair wasn’t neoliberal, just as he wasn’t socialist.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I remember in the Blair years there was the odd Tory MP who jumped ship to New Labour and there was disquiet in the party as to whether these converts genuinely embraced Labour values.

No such disquiet with the Lib Dems.

There is no such disquiet because lib dem 'values' are as elastic as a Boris Johnson promise.

 

[urban genie]

What you’re really just saying is that it was a centrist government as he picked certain neoliberal policies and certain social democratic policies and applied what he thought was the best policy to each specific area.

Blair wasn’t neoliberal, just as he wasn’t socialist.

Why does it bother you if he was, which he was, or as he termed it "the third way" a kind of ordoliberal doctorine popularized in germany in the mid 20th century modernised for the 90s.

Harrold McMillan was similar in prefering the third way

 

[Rascal]

Pretty certain I've seen you claim you would vote communist if they had someone standing where you live Rascal?

Correct, if I had the choice of a Blairite or a Communist, I would vote Communist, but if there was a Socialist standing they would be my first choice.