John Stones - 2016/17 performances

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schfc6 said:
Likewise, Otamendi seems to be defended and his partner blamed. Otamendi has been positionally awful, cost us plenty of goals regardless of partner.
Kompany + Demichellis, Otamendi or Managala all offered a solid defence. Take Kompany away and we never look good.

I'm prepaired to give both Otamendi and Stones a chance when we have top level centre backs.
Stones & Otamendi both look better on the right hand side, normally with Sagna at rightback.

They both have clear qualities and some failings. I think Stones' faults are easier to iron out. Otamendi's fault seems totally ingrained in him.
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What's your definition of a top level CB? How many of them play in england? I think everyone here has had unrealistic expectations for Stones, Mangala, Otamendi, and I'm sure it'll be the same with whoever is next in line. We all want somebody with the quality of vinnie but good luck buying that. There are loads of great forwards, midfielders, fullbacks and wingers out there and very few complete CB's. It's impossible to buy this mythical CB like all of you guys seem to have expected us to have now by now or are expecting us to buy our next go round.. The problem is that England has been complete garbage at producing quality CB's and your best are dispersed throughout the country and never have a chance to develop together. The ones that could have been great never got a chance to play because everyone wants a quick fix. Maybe Tosin and Cam would be the next Ramos/Pique? We'll never find out. This isn't Germany/Italy/Spain where we you can just pick up the best in the country anytime you like.

Who would you poach from the premier league and be legitimately stoked about it? The tottenham CB's maybe, then what? Whoever comes in is going to be flawed.

1) Barca: Spainish, aregentine (converted midfielder).
2) Real: Spain, port.
3) Bayern: German pairing.
4) Juve: Italian pairing.
5) PSG: Brazilian pairing
6) City, United, Chelsea, Arsenal (luiz/cahill, smalling/blind/baily, kosc/and two second rate german defenders) Random mix of nationalities and none of them elite CBs.
7) Athleti: Uruguayan/Uruguayan.
8) Tottenham: Belgium/Belgium.

You see the trend there? They keep the best in their country and partner them together and if they don't they link up two that actually know how the hell to talk to one another. Whoever comes in next will be a gamble and will be flawed. Maybe just stick with the same thing and see how that works out instead of having a revolving door.

Hey, just an observation though.
 
ADegenerate said:
What's your definition of a top level CB? How many of them play in england? I think everyone here has had unrealistic expectations for Stones, Mangala, Otamendi, and I'm sure it'll be the same with whoever is next in line. We all want somebody with the quality of vinnie but good luck buying that. There are loads of great forwards, midfielders, fullbacks and wingers out there and very few complete CB's. It's impossible to buy this mythical CB like all of you guys seem to have expected us to have now by now or are expecting us to buy our next go round.. The problem is that England has been complete garbage at producing quality CB's and your best are dispersed throughout the country and never have a chance to develop together. The ones that could have been great never got a chance to play because everyone wants a quick fix. Maybe Tosin and Cam would be the next Ramos/Pique? We'll never find out. This isn't Germany/Italy/Spain where we you can just pick up the best in the country anytime you like.

Who would you poach from the premier league and be legitimately stoked about it? The tottenham CB's maybe, then what? Whoever comes in is going to be flawed.

1) Barca: Spainish, aregentine (converted midfielder).
2) Real: Spain, port.
3) Bayern: German pairing.
4) Juve: Italian pairing.
5) PSG: Brazilian pairing
6) City, United, Chelsea, Arsenal (luiz/cahill, smalling/blind/baily, kosc/and two second rate german defenders) Random mix of nationalities and none of them elite CBs.
7) Athleti: Uruguayan/Uruguayan.
8) Tottenham: Belgium/Belgium.

You see the trend there? They keep the best in their country and partner them together and if they don't they link up two that actually know how the hell to talk to one another. Whoever comes in next will be a gamble and will be flawed. Maybe just stick with the same thing and see how that works out instead of having a revolving door.

Hey, just an observation though.
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You are right, the English CBs at the moment are fucking shocking, the worst that I can remember going back to the 70s, and up until the last few years it was always one of our strongest positions, historically there were CBs that couldnt get a sniff of a game, who would walk into the England team now. Hopefully we can get Laporte and he will be fully over his injury to live up to his promise he has shown, that and of course the unicorn of Kompany coming back to full fitness, which if it happened would be the answer to many many issues at the back. 2 energetic full backs would make the CBs jobs easier as well but they wont stop Ota going AWOL. There is no way we will be sticking with things as they are, going into next season with Kompany, Ota, Stones and Kolarov as our CB options.

I think the reason that Stones gets more slack from most posters on here is down to the age gap between him and Ota, Stones is 5 or 6 years from even starting to come into his peak as a CB whereas Ota should be at his peak now. Nothing to do with nationalities of the the players, certainly isnt from my point of view.
 
ADegenerate said:
What's your definition of a top level CB? How many of them play in england? I think everyone here has had unrealistic expectations for Stones, Mangala, Otamendi, and I'm sure it'll be the same with whoever is next in line. We all want somebody with the quality of vinnie but good luck buying that. There are loads of great forwards, midfielders, fullbacks and wingers out there and very few complete CB's. It's impossible to buy this mythical CB like all of you guys seem to have expected us to have now by now or are expecting us to buy our next go round.. The problem is that England has been complete garbage at producing quality CB's and your best are dispersed throughout the country and never have a chance to develop together. The ones that could have been great never got a chance to play because everyone wants a quick fix. Maybe Tosin and Cam would be the next Ramos/Pique? We'll never find out. This isn't Germany/Italy/Spain where we you can just pick up the best in the country anytime you like.

Who would you poach from the premier league and be legitimately stoked about it? The tottenham CB's maybe, then what? Whoever comes in is going to be flawed.

1) Barca: Spainish, aregentine (converted midfielder).
2) Real: Spain, port.
3) Bayern: German pairing.
4) Juve: Italian pairing.
5) PSG: Brazilian pairing
6) City, United, Chelsea, Arsenal (luiz/cahill, smalling/blind/baily, kosc/and two second rate german defenders) Random mix of nationalities and none of them elite CBs.
7) Athleti: Uruguayan/Uruguayan.
8) Tottenham: Belgium/Belgium.

You see the trend there? They keep the best in their country and partner them together and if they don't they link up two that actually know how the hell to talk to one another. Whoever comes in next will be a gamble and will be flawed. Maybe just stick with the same thing and see how that works out instead of having a revolving door.

Hey, just an observation though.
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I actually meant full backs...
 
Lescott, Boateng, Savic, Nastasic, Otamendi, Mangala, Stones - they all needed Kompany. What does it says to us? Kompany is just to good to be true.
 
rapidCT said:
Lescott, Boateng, Savic, Nastasic, Otamendi, Mangala, Stones - they all needed Kompany. What does it says to us? Kompany is just to good to be true.
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Kompany had a great year or 2 then injury has marred his play ever since. He hasn't been consistently great since the 2012 I believe, bit his injury and absence has made his legend greater. And every time there is a correlation btw him being healthy and a good run, the good run is attributed to him. Or the beginning of the bad run attributed to his absence. This notion often ignores the fact that we've had similar good rums with him not being in the side. And have equally has bad runs with him in it.

Its a fallacy that the return of Kompany will cure our problems. It wouldn't. He is a good player, probably no better than the guys we have starting. But folks hope and dream the same player from 2012 will show up after so many layoffs. Its strange that people believe this.

The year Kompany was a top 2 in the Europe, Thiago was often deemed the only guy who was superior. 5 years later most don't think of Silva as a top 5 CB anymore. The 2 years following being deemed the best in the world, he went on to have a few inconsistent years.

But somehow, lots of our fans believe Kompany is impervious to down years, even though he has shown rough patches before.

Kompany was a great defender, might still be good now. But the solutions to our defensive woes (if you could call it that) don't lie with him.
 
Dax777 said:
Kompany had a great year or 2 then injury has marred his play ever since. He hasn't been consistently great since the 2012 I believe, bit his injury and absence has made his legend greater. And every time there is a correlation btw him being healthy and a good run, the good run is attributed to him. Or the beginning of the bad run attributed to his absence. This notion often ignores the fact that we've had similar good rums with him not being in the side. And have equally has bad runs with him in it.

Its a fallacy that the return of Kompany will cure our problems. It wouldn't. He is a good player, probably no better than the guys we have starting. But folks hope and dream the same player from 2012 will show up after so many layoffs. Its strange that people believe this.

The year Kompany was a top 2 in the Europe, Thiago was often deemed the only guy who was superior. 5 years later most don't think of Silva as a top 5 CB anymore. The 2 years following being deemed the best in the world, he went on to have a few inconsistent years.

But somehow, lots of our fans believe Kompany is impervious to down years, even though he has shown rough patches before.

Kompany was a great defender, might still be good now. But the solutions to our defensive woes (if you could call it that) don't lie with him.
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Well, you kind of answered for yourself. We cannot count the last two years as he was always injured but, whenever he is fit, he is showing his class. Him and Ramos are the best CB s in the world. To bad the injuries finished Kompanys career so early.
 
Dax777 said:
Kompany had a great year or 2 then injury has marred his play ever since. He hasn't been consistently great since the 2012 I believe, bit his injury and absence has made his legend greater. And every time there is a correlation btw him being healthy and a good run, the good run is attributed to him. Or the beginning of the bad run attributed to his absence. This notion often ignores the fact that we've had similar good rums with him not being in the side. And have equally has bad runs with him in it.

Its a fallacy that the return of Kompany will cure our problems. It wouldn't. He is a good player, probably no better than the guys we have starting. But folks hope and dream the same player from 2012 will show up after so many layoffs. Its strange that people believe this.

The year Kompany was a top 2 in the Europe, Thiago was often deemed the only guy who was superior. 5 years later most don't think of Silva as a top 5 CB anymore. The 2 years following being deemed the best in the world, he went on to have a few inconsistent years.

But somehow, lots of our fans believe Kompany is impervious to down years, even though he has shown rough patches before.

Kompany was a great defender, might still be good now. But the solutions to our defensive woes (if you could call it that) don't lie with him.
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Re your last paragraph, I completely agree, the solution is adequately replacing him.
 
Think today confirmed Stones' biggest problem has been who is next to him. With Otamendi next to him he is constantly left isolated as Ota goes walkabouts or takes himself out of the game sliding in. But him and Kolarov have formed a solid partnership. Both played very well and did their defensive duties with ease.
 
Excellent today and with Alex at his side, out best CB partnership by far.
 
RandomJ said:
Think today confirmed Stones' biggest problem has been who is next to him. With Otamendi next to him he is constantly left isolated as Ota goes walkabouts or takes himself out of the game sliding in. But him and Kolarov have formed a solid partnership. Both played very well and did their defensive duties with ease.
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Agree.
 
i think a no nonsense defender next to him would be great. Kompany is the one, but if not gibson, who we've been linked with from boro looks a very talented player.
 
Imo he's the least reliable on the ball, of our centre backs. He's been here a while now & is still dithering more than even Otamendi & Kolarov.

I don't think he has any special ability on the ball at all, it's just that he doesn't panic & therefore can get himself out of situations he gets himself into.

Unless he does make the transition into a great defender, we have hugely overpaid as far as the 'footballing' bit goes imo.
 
RandomJ said:
Think today confirmed Stones' biggest problem has been who is next to him. With Otamendi next to him he is constantly left isolated as Ota goes walkabouts or takes himself out of the game sliding in. But him and Kolarov have formed a solid partnership. Both played very well and did their defensive duties with ease.
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Does it though. He had a good game and I would agree it seems he performs better when paired with anyone but otamendi as they just don't seem to function and communicate well together as a partnership but stones' biggest problem is still himself. It's been that way when he was at everton and still the case here. I could equally argue otamendi's biggest problem this season has been when he has stones next to him and that has more validity to it than the other way round. I will add that Otamendi himself also has his problems but there seems to be this thing where stones gets excused and others get the blame when he doesn't perform that I don't understand. I posted these exact stats below a couple of pages back in this thread which some still seem to ignore when they try to blame otamendi to compensate for stones

There's been 8 games where otamendi has started without stones and in those games the teams' record reads 7 wins 1 draw (wins against bournemouth, palace, burnley x2, watford, arsenal, hull and the one draw being the 2-2 against spurs) team conceding 6 goals

Meanwhile in the 5 games stones has started without otamendi the teams record reads 2 wins(sunderland 2-1, swansea 2-1) 2 draws (southampton 1-1, middlesborough 1-1) 1 defeat (leiceter 4-2) team conceding 8 goals.

You can praise stones' performance without having to blame someone else when he doesn't as the evidence just doesn't back that up. He still has many flaws in his game and I'm hopeful pep is working hard with him to eradicate them. He might be young but he's still made over 130+ club appearances so he's definitely experienced enough for his age.
 
Neville Kneville said:
Imo he's the least reliable on the ball, of our centre backs. He's been here a while now & is still dithering more than even Otamendi & Kolarov.

I don't think he has any special ability on the ball at all, it's just that he doesn't panic & therefore can get himself out of situations he gets himself into.

Unless he does make the transition into a great defender, we have hugely overpaid as far as the 'footballing' bit goes imo.
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He has good ball control. And is obviously comfortable with the ball at his feet (more so than Kolarov IMO). It's finding the pass between the lines he struggles with. And it's the difficult part.

When Kolarov comes forward with the ball. He usually finds the space to pass to a teammate. Stones does the same, he often backs down and passes it to Kolarov. Kolarov is simply a more intelligent footballer. Haven't seen Stones try many of those long-passes Kolarov does so well either.

If he doesn't improve that. We have overpaid badly.
 
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Pep on Stones: "He's [now] playing at a high, high level: w/ the long balls, not making mistakes on his own. He's becoming a better player."
 
Why wasn't Stones playing yesterday? Pep has said in the past that when we need to be faster in the build up, Stones and Kolarov are his first choice pair.


I think we missed him quite a lot.
 
Very good today but I've been disappointed with his passing. It hasn't been bad but not all it's made up to be. Kolarov has been far better in that aspect, an attribute that was billed as his biggest strength. I'm not complaining because he's been pretty good all-round but I was expecting a few more difficult passes.
 
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