John Stones

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Dax777 said:
I think City watch is playing a joke on me. Thyve been reading my post and decided to make me get excited. It's about to go nuclear up in here :-)

Stones/Laporte. Yes!!!!!!! Please be true.
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City Watch ‏@City_Watch 1 min
Back up is Huth and Shawcross, with Carroll up front to get on the end of Hart's long balls as Pep believes he'll need to adapt his style for the Premier League [El Correo]
 
£80m is a lot of money on CBs... we must have a huge transfer budget this summer if we are spunking that kind of money on CBs, with fullback and CM needing a total overhaul.
 
It can't be true first bid 40 mill for stones , so going by historical dealings with merseyside clubs that will be an 80m signing for stones in July.
 
MeatHunterrr said:
£80m is a lot of money on CBs... we must have a huge transfer budget this summer if we are spunking that kind of money on CBs, with fullback and CM needing a total overhaul.
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I think the gross spend budget mentioned was around £250m mate! Obviously that would hopefully include pogba or like at £80m odd.

Laporte @ £39m
Stones @ £39m
Gundogan @ £22m
Ter Stegen @ £20m
Pogba @ £80m

Nearly £200m gross spend there!
 
Dax777 said:
Again, this is an example of why I ask for specifics. Against Villa, Jageilka was playing Man on Gestede, he got beat on the header Stones simply ran up from behind the play to contest the header, yet you ascribed the error to Stones. By the way, this is not an error, just Jageilka getting beat by a better jumper. It happens. But either way, it wasn't even Stones who was out jumped, it was Jageilka. Stones was the support defender on the play. So we can scratch this from your list.


1st goal: Antonio outjumps Funes Mori. How this is even ascribed to Stones is a bit of a head scratcher.

2nd Goal: Sahko is fronted by Galloway, then outjumps Coleman for the header. Again how this is ascribed to Stones is also a head scratcher.

3rd goal: Someone beats Jageilka with a cute pullback, OK on this one the supporting CB should have been in the middle and wasn't there. I can see how you could ascribe this error to Stones. But here is the head scratcher. How was Stones supposed to make that play? Seeing as he was already on the bench. Matter of fact he was on the bench for all 3 goals. Got subbed off at halftime. Yet you ascribed all 3 goals to him.
This is what I mean by buying into hype and narrative. Your mind has tricked you into ascribing fault to a guy who wasn't even playing at th E time.


Okay
Just by reading the United claim, I could tell it was a false ascription. We are talking about who is at fault here. Of the five players marginally involved he is the least culpable, assuming you are ignoring the real error which began with the soft pressure from the halfway line.

But let's focus on the goal: Mata gets soft pressure from Baines, passes to Rashford who Jageilka does nothing to stop his drag back to an incoming Nwusu ( Real error here is Cleverly failing to track the deep running Owusu, who crosses inside the box 8 feet away from Stones. For Stones to cut this out he runs the risk of putting it in his goal. But for Martial to score he has to out run his marker Coleman. Yet you include this as an example of Stones causing a goal. This is what I call ascription by reputation. I described this type of error of analysis in my prior post.

I'll give you this. Even though the original error was Robles. Free ball going into his box he should have run over to pick up, he didn't, which left Stones with the decision ( in hindsight Stones should have just knocked it out for a throw in. He didn't, instead gave Robbles a bouncing pass( his error). Robbles too could still have belted it out for a throw in too, but he sheepishly knocked it out for a cornerkick.

This you can ascribe to him. Albeit, with the cavier that you understand that by doing so you have now absolved whoever got beat on the cornercick from fault.

I bring this up not to absolve him, but to point out how who you point to for error changes depending on where in the sequence Stones finds himself. Another easy tell of ascription by reputation. This errors was also replayed 1000 times, magnifying the impression that he is unusually error prone.

Funny enough, this is a good error for me. This is someone who cherishes possession above all things ( a Pep type of guy) poor touch on this pass, but this is unlikely to happen often, nor would it be an error if you had a footballer at goalie. He'd simply lob it back into Stones part. This is the type of error I'm totally fine with as it signifies exactly what we want and what we'll do way better than Robbles weak help.

Again, another one of those fake errors ascribed to Stones for being around. It is clear from the play he was man on Rodriguez, who stepped back to open a lane for a pass from Tadic. Stones got closer and Tadic scrambled it behind him to a winger Sane who was being defended no one. Slipped by 2 clueless midfielders to take an unchallenged position in the box. Unless you are suggesting Stones should be responsible for Rodriguez, and Sane all at once. We can easily file this under the false error category.


Again, I have already stated previously, that bar the Liverpool game, where he was having a royal stinker,
I already gave you this game. Perhaps his worst game of the season. He got pulled after 60 or so minutes. He was having a bad day. But I still disagree on the 2ns goal. A cross into the 6 yard box is the goalies ball. But worse still this is about man responsibility. He was responsible for Lovren and had him covered, again he can't pick up 2 players at once. Goal #2 is as usual another false ascription.

Again I explained this in our previous discussion. Ascribing Fellianis goal to him is another of those mistaking systemic errors for individual error. The error was on pass entry. By the time it got to Felliani it was all done. I'd you allow an easy pass to a moving target then its game over. There has to be pressure on the passer. He can't easy pass into the box and then blame the CB nearest for not closing the acoreer down. Also Jageilka opened the pass line not Stones. Whoever were the 2 guys out left alloew an easy pass entry. Stones late slide is simply by product.

2nd goal, watch from the beginning of the play, who was on Martial? Why did that person let him go make a run with no pressure? That's where the error occurred, Stones hesitation when it looked like Everton had recovered is just a byproduct of the system.

See, I went through your list, and barring Liverpool, moat of these so called errors are either made up (West Ham), acceptable for our purposes (Watford) or simply ascribed by reputation.

I have watched about 18 Everton games to focus on Stones. I have no doubt he is very good. And these reputation based assessments are far off the mark.

Just like I've shown easily with your examples.
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Give you West Ham, my bad. Memory not what it used to be. the rest he's poor... Guess we have massively different expectations on what a 40/50 million pound defender should be... Even by your less high expectations he's poor for a lot of goals in this period.... But let's just agree to disagree and reconvene next season when he's costing us goals left right and centre. If we buy him of course
 
richards30 said:
I think the gross spend budget mentioned was around £250m mate! Obviously that would hopefully include pogba or like at £80m odd.

Laporte @ £39m
Stones @ £39m
Gundogan @ £22m
Ter Stegen @ £20m
Pogba @ £80m

Nearly £200m gross spend there!
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Pogba isn't coming.
 
richards30 said:
I think the gross spend budget mentioned was around £250m mate! Obviously that would hopefully include pogba or like at £80m odd.

Laporte @ £39m
Stones @ £39m
Gundogan @ £22m
Ter Stegen @ £20m
Pogba @ £80m

Nearly £200m gross spend there!
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What about the cost of 2 new full backs ? Call it 240 million if we buy Laporte and Stones.
 
Bluearmy said:
Because you said only 1 goal was his fault which is completely false. I've totally ignored what's said in the press. There singing his praises as the next beckenbauer in the main.... I'm not. And fair enough, more detail below...

Villa away. Comes on as sub with 17 minutes left with Everton 3 up. they concede as Stones is out jumped easily (common theme) late on

West Ham home. Out jumped twice and out of position for the other goal

Chelsea clean sheet

Arsenal not at fault for any goals

United in the league. Possibly could of cut the ball to martial out

Watford. Horrific back pass from him caused corner to be given away. Goal conceded

Palace not at fault for any goals

Southampton. Goes walk about and Mane scores right in the middle of the goal where stones should of been

Liverpool. Out jumped by Origi, stood at left back while sakho has a free header middle of the goal where he should of been. And gives the ball away when passing out on the sturridge goal

United. Doesn't see Fellani 6 yards out which gives him an easy finish. Switches off in last seconds to leave marshal in space to score..

The evidence is there....
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Made me think of this...




"In 1982 there was the incident with the pigeon..."


Sorry. Carry on.
 
richards30 said:
I think the gross spend budget mentioned was around £250m mate! Obviously that would hopefully include pogba or like at £80m odd.

Laporte @ £39m
Stones @ £39m
Gundogan @ £22m
Ter Stegen @ £20m
Pogba @ £80m

Nearly £200m gross spend there!
Click to expand...

I would personally only get 1 CB and try for Griezmann. If we don't get another forward player to replace Bony, we will be in serious trouble when Aguero is injured. Griezmann is absolutely perfect for us.
 
Bluearmy said:
Give you West Ham, my bad. Memory not what it used to be. the rest he's poor... Guess we have massively different expectations on what a 40/50 million pound defender should be... Even by your less high expectations he's poor for a lot of goals in this period.... But let's just agree to disagree and reconvene next season when he's costing us goals left right and centre. If we buy him of course
Click to expand...
Liverpool. That's it. Had a bad game. Then there is the highly publicized Watford back pass. If that was Ter Steegen ( Or Hopefully Hart by next season) the ball is simply return lobbed into Stones path and it's hailed as high level possession potential. I wouldn't worry my head too much about that.

All the other goals were errors by reputation. To some extent even the Watford goal. There was still a cornerkick, which is not a gimme. And defending it was poor. Again, systemic. Not individual.

I'll grant you this, there are cheaper, somewhat Similarly talented CBs we could buy instead of paying 50 million for Stones. I'm not oblivious to that. There is Virgil at Southampton, Rugani, Sule, Romagnoli, Tah, Diego Reyes and a host of others.

But that's a scouting issue. That is not Stones fault that we are not looking into cheaper alternatives who may be just as good for our system.

If we ignore the cost and simply focus on whether the talent is there. The answer is a resounsing yes for Stones. He is talented both as a defender and as a footballer.

Lots of people watched the United FA cup game. Specifically to checkout Stones. Read the responses on this thread. I believe Fantasyireland posted the initial comment of him giving up the goal to Felliani ( I disagree with that assessment, but that's neither here nor there, just opinions.) Bit pay attention to the reaction everyone has from then on.

The general thrust was that he had had a stellar overall game. Even though some blame him for both goals. The talent is undeniable when you actually watch him the whole game.

He was marshall's a defence that includes 4 other experienced internationals. Baines, Coleman, Jageilka and the US goalie early on. His leadership abilities jump off the screen.

After watching him numerous times, I have no qualms about getting him. Yes, the price Rob's me the wrong way, but we paid similar for Mangala, I didn't think he was half that good.

Funny enough Mangala was the rage here back then, when I thought we'd be better off spending our limited funds on Sanchez and Fabregas if we wanted to retain the title.

Well we went Mangala and Fernando instead and lost the title anyway.
 
I wouldn't cry too much if we brought in Stones and Laporte for Mangala/Otamendi. Martinez has turned Everton's once solid defence into a shambles, not generally reflective on Stones.
 
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