John Stones

[obliquerays]

I'm sorry but Otamendi is light years better than Mangala. He is multiple classes above him. No way Ota is being sold. The taught is laughable really. If a new CB comes in its either Denayer is not coming back or Mangala is leaving.

Neither Kompany not Ota ate going anywhere. These 2 are going to be constant.

If I were to compare our defenders to Bayern's, Komps would be Badstuber, Ota is Boateng, and Mangala is Dante.

That was just my opinion/hunch with a touch of devils advocate Dax.
I appreciate you watch considerably more football than I do, and probably approach it in a more scholarly fashion ! Nevertheless a few points in support of my contention ...
I'd fully agree that right now Ota is a more consistent reliable player than Eli but he's still prone to rash and impulsive challenges/decisions that have cost us points, particularly when Vinny hasn't been there in peak form, with his cloak of tranquility covering up partners frailties. He had a horror show only a month ago against West Ham and even in VK's first game back he didn't cover himself in glory against Lamela in the build up to Eriksen's winner.
He's three years older than Mangala and played alongside him plenty at Porto, where presumably our scouts thought that Eliaquim had much greater potential considering they moved in the same window and we spent about four times the money Valencia laid out on Nico.
Indeed Otamendi after really arriving on the World stage at South Africa 2010, has had some ups and downs in form during his career and was left out of the Argentina squad for Brasil 2014 (MD and Campagnaro being preferred to him suggests he had a really dodgy spell on loan at Minerio or Sabella had some non footballing reasoning maybe ?) while Mangala went with France, so in any case its fair to say that only 18 months ago their careers were heading along quite different trajectories !
Obviously since then Mangala has stalled a bit since arriving at City (with some mitigating factors like no pre-season in 2014 and various injuries preventing him ever being able to establish a consistent run in the side alongside an in form partner). In contrast Ota has bounced back emphatically since that disappointment, with a fantastic season for Valencia followed by an excellent Copa America last summer.
The point being that Otamendi while always considered as a player of real potential, has seemingly only really put the whole lot together and produced consistently top form over the last season and a half after turning 26 ....
So is it really that outlandish to suggest that under a unique genius of a coach, who has turned older and similarly inconsistent players careers inside out (Eric Abidal anyone ?), that a player with the impressive qualities that Mangala undoubtedly possesses can't do the same ? I don't know but I think it's definitely possible.
I certainly think that looking over both their entire careers or even just this season at City, it's serious hyperbole to be saying things like 'light years better' and 'multiple classes above' in any case, perhaps you're a little caught up in the warm fuzzy afterglow of our two recent triumphs ?!
Nico has played better overall no doubt, but both have had their share of 'moments' and both have shone at times too ... unsurprisingly most of those shiny performances have been with Vinny next door to them, a luxury that Eli hasn't had since .... you know the beginning of the season which they started with five clean sheets !
Re your Bayern comparison, Nico couldn't play those Boateng laser guided long passes in his dreams mate ! Wikipedia tells me that Dante was a prominent member of that Heynckes side that broke all sorts of defensive records in the 12/13 season, so there are worse comparisons out there ... even if Germany breaking him and Luiz in Brasil a year later is fresher in the memory !
I'm sure I'm probably oversimplifying things but I see great talent along with a some smaller flaws in both players, so I'm just curious where exactly you see this huge chasm in their respective talents ?

To draw things back to the actual topic in hand, my only issue with signing Stones would be that while he's a fine prospect (and I suspect a lot of his sketchy form this season is down to his head being turned back in August), I fear he'd be blocking Jason Denayer's progress in the future, or can JS be equally adept as a left sided CB ?
I believe we have have four excellent central defenders already (assuming JD replaces MD, though I can understand the theory that Guardiola may fancy a more comfortable ball player with top class distributional skills.
I'd personally favour Laporte at the likely prices and being a natural lefty but I wouldn't be bowled over if Pep decides he's happy enough with what he's inheriting already. After all we can't overhaul the whole squad in one window and I don't think CB is a pressing area of concern, certainly not in comparison to full backs and our central midfield.

Whatever happens, it's going to be so exciting watching it all play out this year anyways, what a time to be a Blue !

 

[FantasyIreland]

Given next seasons main four options,why do people believe we are struggling in this area of the team?

 

[Tugay One Cup]

Mangala is Dante.

Dante is no longer at Bayern, they got rid of him to Wolfsburg. I was actually about to say that I hope Pep doesn't sign us a defender of Dante's quality because he was dogshit but just checked and Bayern signed him a year before Pep arrived.

Haven't clocked either, but Laporte looks much faster going by my eye test. I've seen Laporte chase down fast players, I generally tend to see Stones avoiding getting into races with fast guys.

Agree with this, Laporte seems quicker and can hold his own against nimble strikers.

 

[obliquerays]

Given next seasons main four options,why do people believe we are struggling in this area of the team?

Good question.

As I've alluded to in my lengthy ramble above, it is an area that could be left well alone until the Summer of 2017 imo. Of course it's always easier to say this while Vince is fit and looking in Rolls Royce form but that would apply to any team lucky enough to have one of the top 5 players in the world at their position.

 

[KCblue]

Given next seasons main four options,why do people believe we are struggling in this area of the team?

I don't believe the quality of the players is the issue, other than Demi - he's past it. But the system in which we play doesn't make them look the brightest and Mangler and Nico definitely have their fair share of bonehead decisions during matches.

 

[Dax777]

Dante is no longer at Bayern, they got rid of him to Wolfsburg. I was actually about to say that I hope Pep doesn't sign us a defender of Dante's quality because he was dogshit but just checked and Bayern signed him a year before Pep arrived.



Agree with this, Laporte seems quicker and can hold his own against nimble strikers.

I know. The choice was intended. :) I think Mangala will stay for a year and then be moved on.

 

[Dax777]

That was just my opinion/hunch with a touch of devils advocate Dax.
I appreciate you watch considerably more football than I do, and probably approach it in a more scholarly fashion ! Nevertheless a few points in support of my contention ...
I'd fully agree that right now Ota is a more consistent reliable player than Eli but he's still prone to rash and impulsive challenges/decisions that have cost us points, particularly when Vinny hasn't been there in peak form, with his cloak of tranquility covering up partners frailties. He had a horror show only a month ago against West Ham and even in VK's first game back he didn't cover himself in glory against Lamela in the build up to Eriksen's winner.
He's three years older than Mangala and played alongside him plenty at Porto, where presumably our scouts thought that Eliaquim had much greater potential considering they moved in the same window and we spent about four times the money Valencia laid out on Nico.
Indeed Otamendi after really arriving on the World stage at South Africa 2010, has had some ups and downs in form during his career and was left out of the Argentina squad for Brasil 2014 (MD and Campagnaro being preferred to him suggests he had a really dodgy spell on loan at Minerio or Sabella had some non footballing reasoning maybe ?) while Mangala went with France, so in any case its fair to say that only 18 months ago their careers were heading along quite different trajectories !
Obviously since then Mangala has stalled a bit since arriving at City (with some mitigating factors like no pre-season in 2014 and various injuries preventing him ever being able to establish a consistent run in the side alongside an in form partner). In contrast Ota has bounced back emphatically since that disappointment, with a fantastic season for Valencia followed by an excellent Copa America last summer.
The point being that Otamendi while always considered as a player of real potential, has seemingly only really put the whole lot together and produced consistently top form over the last season and a half after turning 26 ....
So is it really that outlandish to suggest that under a unique genius of a coach, who has turned older and similarly inconsistent players careers inside out (Eric Abidal anyone ?), that a player with the impressive qualities that Mangala undoubtedly possesses can't do the same ? I don't know but I think it's definitely possible.
I certainly think that looking over both their entire careers or even just this season at City, it's serious hyperbole to be saying things like 'light years better' and 'multiple classes above' in any case, perhaps you're a little caught up in the warm fuzzy afterglow of our two recent triumphs ?!
Nico has played better overall no doubt, but both have had their share of 'moments' and both have shone at times too ... unsurprisingly most of those shiny performances have been with Vinny next door to them, a luxury that Eli hasn't had since .... you know the beginning of the season which they started with five clean sheets !
Re your Bayern comparison, Nico couldn't play those Boateng laser guided long passes in his dreams mate ! Wikipedia tells me that Dante was a prominent member of that Heynckes side that broke all sorts of defensive records in the 12/13 season, so there are worse comparisons out there ... even if Germany breaking him and Luiz in Brasil a year later is fresher in the memory !
I'm sure I'm probably oversimplifying things but I see great talent along with a some smaller flaws in both players, so I'm just curious where exactly you see this huge chasm in their respective talents ?

To draw things back to the actual topic in hand, my only issue with signing Stones would be that while he's a fine prospect (and I suspect a lot of his sketchy form this season is down to his head being turned back in August), I fear he'd be blocking Jason Denayer's progress in the future, or can JS be equally adept as a left sided CB ?
I believe we have have four excellent central defenders already (assuming JD replaces MD, though I can understand the theory that Guardiola may fancy a more comfortable ball player with top class distributional skills.
I'd personally favour Laporte at the likely prices and being a natural lefty but I wouldn't be bowled over if Pep decides he's happy enough with what he's inheriting already. After all we can't overhaul the whole squad in one window and I don't think CB is a pressing area of concern, certainly not in comparison to full backs and our central midfield.

Whatever happens, it's going to be so exciting watching it all play out this year anyways, what a time to be a Blue !

Dude, love the way you write (and not coz you puffed my head up in the beginning of the writeup.) But I like the in-depth considerations before concluding. I truly enjoyed reading your response.

And in fairness my statement suggesting Ota is light years better is hyperbolic. Icwas just trying to drive home the point that he was unlikely to leave.

So in a sense we agree generally on a few things. Ota is currently better, they both make mistakes, and Mangala is younger. I also agree that hypothetically speaking Mangala could get better and become very good.

I disagree on some things:
1. I don't think moat of Ota's good games have come with Kompany. He has had some 2. But more of his better games have come without Kompany. This is not to suggest he is better without Kompany, he isn't. But he has in fact played more of his good games without him. Mangala on the other hand has barely plays well without Kompany.

2. As for who was better at Porto, I don't think Mangala was, he was just younger, and younger players get the benefit of the doubt. For example Jageilka has been better than Stones this season, yet Stones is the one every top English team would consider buying. This is not proof he is better, rather it's projection that he might be later down the line considering his age. Similar considerations were a factor when they both played at Porto. This also is not to suggest some didn't conclude Mangala was better outright, many did. I wasn't one of them. Always thought Ota was the better footballer even though Mangs showed an intensity that some believed suggested future WC.

3. There is a penchant for comparing Boateng and Abidal to Mangala, I really don't see the comparison. For 1, both were ball playing footballers. Sure they got better, but the tools they now exhibited with consistency later, was always there. Just inconsistent. Mangala on the other hand is not a ball player. He is more of an athlete. He is the very epitome of the kind of player Barca wouldn't recruit. He is tough, hardworking, energetic, strong, fast, athletic, powerful l dominant ariely dominant. All qualities that many great CBs have embodied. But he lacks a footballing touch, and has an average to below average footballing IQ. His IQ could be improved greatly by a good coach. His touch on the other hand is probably already what it's always going to be. Sahkoesque or Dantesque. Thus, my comparison to Dante. This is not to suggest Dante is a terrible player, he isn't. Neither is Mangala. But for a team I suspect would cherish possession under Pep, I struggle to see how he makes the grade.

As for the topic at hand, seeing as I've gone way out in left field, yes I'd rather have the cheaper Larpote too.

 

[Longridge Blue]

Dude, love the way you write (and not coz you puffed my head up in the beginning of the writeup.) But I like the in-depth considerations before concluding. I truly enjoyed reading your response.

And in fairness my statement suggesting Ota is light years better is hyperbolic. Icwas just trying to drive home the point that he was unlikely to leave.

So in a sense we agree generally on a few things. Ota is currently better, they both make mistakes, and Mangala is younger. I also agree that hypothetically speaking Mangala could get better and become very good.

I disagree on some things:
1. I don't think moat of Ota's good games have come with Kompany. He has had some 2. But more of his better games have come without Kompany. This is not to suggest he is better without Kompany, he isn't. But he has in fact played more of his good games without him. Mangala on the other hand has barely plays well without Kompany.

2. As for who was better at Porto, I don't think Mangala was, he was just younger, and younger players get the benefit of the doubt. For example Jageilka has been better than Stones this season, yet Stones is the one every top English team would consider buying. This is not proof he is better, rather it's projection that he might be later down the line considering his age. Similar considerations were a factor when they both played at Porto. This also is not to suggest some didn't conclude Mangala was better outright, many did. I wasn't one of them. Always thought Ota was the better footballer even though Mangs showed an intensity that some believed suggested future WC.

3. There is a penchant for comparing Boateng and Abidal to Mangala, I really don't see the comparison. For 1, both were ball playing footballers. Sure they got better, but the tools they now exhibited with consistency later, was always there. Just inconsistent. Mangala on the other hand is not a ball player. He is more of an athlete. He is the very epitome of the kind of player Barca wouldn't recruit. He is tough, hardworking, energetic, strong, fast, athletic, powerful l dominant ariely dominant. All qualities that many great CBs have embodied. But he lacks a footballing touch, and has an average to below average footballing IQ. His IQ could be improved greatly by a good coach. His touch on the other hand is probably already what it's always going to be. Sahkoesque or Dantesque. Thus, my comparison to Dante. This is not to suggest Dante is a terrible player, he isn't. Neither is Mangala. But for a team I suspect would cherish possession under Pep, I struggle to see how he makes the grade.

As for the topic at hand, seeing as I've gone way out in left field, yes I'd rather have the cheaper Larpote too.

Having just read the latest post from yourself and oblique rays, I realisehow little I actually know about some of our players, and European football in general. Both are great post with really good points, thanks for the read.

 

[Tugay One Cup]

That was just my opinion/hunch with a touch of devils advocate Dax.
I appreciate you watch considerably more football than I do, and probably approach it in a more scholarly fashion ! Nevertheless a few points in support of my contention ...
I'd fully agree that right now Ota is a more consistent reliable player than Eli but he's still prone to rash and impulsive challenges/decisions that have cost us points, particularly when Vinny hasn't been there in peak form, with his cloak of tranquility covering up partners frailties. He had a horror show only a month ago against West Ham and even in VK's first game back he didn't cover himself in glory against Lamela in the build up to Eriksen's winner.
He's three years older than Mangala and played alongside him plenty at Porto, where presumably our scouts thought that Eliaquim had much greater potential considering they moved in the same window and we spent about four times the money Valencia laid out on Nico.
Indeed Otamendi after really arriving on the World stage at South Africa 2010, has had some ups and downs in form during his career and was left out of the Argentina squad for Brasil 2014 (MD and Campagnaro being preferred to him suggests he had a really dodgy spell on loan at Minerio or Sabella had some non footballing reasoning maybe ?) while Mangala went with France, so in any case its fair to say that only 18 months ago their careers were heading along quite different trajectories !
Obviously since then Mangala has stalled a bit since arriving at City (with some mitigating factors like no pre-season in 2014 and various injuries preventing him ever being able to establish a consistent run in the side alongside an in form partner). In contrast Ota has bounced back emphatically since that disappointment, with a fantastic season for Valencia followed by an excellent Copa America last summer.
The point being that Otamendi while always considered as a player of real potential, has seemingly only really put the whole lot together and produced consistently top form over the last season and a half after turning 26 ....
So is it really that outlandish to suggest that under a unique genius of a coach, who has turned older and similarly inconsistent players careers inside out (Eric Abidal anyone ?), that a player with the impressive qualities that Mangala undoubtedly possesses can't do the same ? I don't know but I think it's definitely possible.
I certainly think that looking over both their entire careers or even just this season at City, it's serious hyperbole to be saying things like 'light years better' and 'multiple classes above' in any case, perhaps you're a little caught up in the warm fuzzy afterglow of our two recent triumphs ?!
Nico has played better overall no doubt, but both have had their share of 'moments' and both have shone at times too ... unsurprisingly most of those shiny performances have been with Vinny next door to them, a luxury that Eli hasn't had since .... you know the beginning of the season which they started with five clean sheets !
Re your Bayern comparison, Nico couldn't play those Boateng laser guided long passes in his dreams mate ! Wikipedia tells me that Dante was a prominent member of that Heynckes side that broke all sorts of defensive records in the 12/13 season, so there are worse comparisons out there ... even if Germany breaking him and Luiz in Brasil a year later is fresher in the memory !
I'm sure I'm probably oversimplifying things but I see great talent along with a some smaller flaws in both players, so I'm just curious where exactly you see this huge chasm in their respective talents ?

To draw things back to the actual topic in hand, my only issue with signing Stones would be that while he's a fine prospect (and I suspect a lot of his sketchy form this season is down to his head being turned back in August), I fear he'd be blocking Jason Denayer's progress in the future, or can JS be equally adept as a left sided CB ?
I believe we have have four excellent central defenders already (assuming JD replaces MD, though I can understand the theory that Guardiola may fancy a more comfortable ball player with top class distributional skills.
I'd personally favour Laporte at the likely prices and being a natural lefty but I wouldn't be bowled over if Pep decides he's happy enough with what he's inheriting already. After all we can't overhaul the whole squad in one window and I don't think CB is a pressing area of concern, certainly not in comparison to full backs and our central midfield.

Whatever happens, it's going to be so exciting watching it all play out this year anyways, what a time to be a Blue !

Jesus, I thought I waffled :)
Cracking post!

 

[birchwoodgingerste]

Dude, love the way you write (and not coz you puffed my head up in the beginning of the writeup.) But I like the in-depth considerations before concluding. I truly enjoyed reading your response.

And in fairness my statement suggesting Ota is light years better is hyperbolic. Icwas just trying to drive home the point that he was unlikely to leave.

So in a sense we agree generally on a few things. Ota is currently better, they both make mistakes, and Mangala is younger. I also agree that hypothetically speaking Mangala could get better and become very good.

I disagree on some things:
1. I don't think moat of Ota's good games have come with Kompany. He has had some 2. But more of his better games have come without Kompany. This is not to suggest he is better without Kompany, he isn't. But he has in fact played more of his good games without him. Mangala on the other hand has barely plays well without Kompany.

2. As for who was better at Porto, I don't think Mangala was, he was just younger, and younger players get the benefit of the doubt. For example Jageilka has been better than Stones this season, yet Stones is the one every top English team would consider buying. This is not proof he is better, rather it's projection that he might be later down the line considering his age. Similar considerations were a factor when they both played at Porto. This also is not to suggest some didn't conclude Mangala was better outright, many did. I wasn't one of them. Always thought Ota was the better footballer even though Mangs showed an intensity that some believed suggested future WC.

3. There is a penchant for comparing Boateng and Abidal to Mangala, I really don't see the comparison. For 1, both were ball playing footballers. Sure they got better, but the tools they now exhibited with consistency later, was always there. Just inconsistent. Mangala on the other hand is not a ball player. He is more of an athlete. He is the very epitome of the kind of player Barca wouldn't recruit. He is tough, hardworking, energetic, strong, fast, athletic, powerful l dominant ariely dominant. All qualities that many great CBs have embodied. But he lacks a footballing touch, and has an average to below average footballing IQ. His IQ could be improved greatly by a good coach. His touch on the other hand is probably already what it's always going to be. Sahkoesque or Dantesque. Thus, my comparison to Dante. This is not to suggest Dante is a terrible player, he isn't. Neither is Mangala. But for a team I suspect would cherish possession under Pep, I struggle to see how he makes the grade.

As for the topic at hand, seeing as I've gone way out in left field, yes I'd rather have the cheaper Larpote too.

Great post Dax