Jorginho

[Dr Jacoby]

Fred, imo would have been perfectly ok.

We have to takes some weight off Fernandinho imo, as he is being overworked, by quite a lot, & also sometimes could do with a partner.

I like Jorginho, but I'm sure we'll find someone to fit the job if anything goes wrong.

Perhaps I’m mistaken but isn’t Fred a similar player to Fernandinho? In that he’s an excellent footballer who can comfortably operate as a DM, box-to-box CM or even as attacking midfielder..?

I thought the push for Jorginho was his excellent passing range, defensive nous and composure on the ball. A more glamorous version of Barry/Carrick if you will.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Perhaps I’m mistaken but isn’t Fred a similar player to Fernandinho? In that he’s an excellent footballer who can comfortably operate as a DM, box-to-box CM or even as attacking midfielder..?

I thought the push for Jorginho was his excellent passing range, defensive nous and composure on the ball. A more glamorous version of Barry/Carrick if you will.

I think too much is made of that.

Out of the 3, Jorginho is the smartest on the ball, & I'd say Fred the least, but the difference in quality between that & what Fernandinho does, is not worth getting over excited about imo. Fern is brilliant on the ball & can match any Youtube of Jorginho, if someone wanted to promote it to sell him. Jorginho has a bit more 'Silva' style creativity about him, Fred is quicker & more dynamic.

Neither play in the Prem, & the games where City find it difficult, they will too, just as Fern does. I'd ditch Gundogan & sign both personally.

 

[Deleted member 81382]

I think too much is made of that.

Out of the 3, Jorginho is the smartest on the ball, & I'd say Fred the least, but the difference in quality between that & what Fernandinho does, is not worth getting over excited about imo. Fern is brilliant on the ball & can match any Youtube of Jorginho, if someone wanted to promote it to sell him. Jorginho has a bit more 'Silva' style creativity about him, Fred is quicker & more dynamic.

Neither play in the Prem, & the games where City find it difficult, they will too, just as Fern does. I'd ditch Gundogan & sign both personally.

Hard to see Gundogan getting a lot of game time next season.

 

[Rammyblues]

Hard to see Gundogan getting a lot of game time next season.

Then he will have to up his game and compete for a place in the team.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Best options if Jorginho talks drag on? With Fabinho off the market, it would seem Fred or Weigl are the only other options we've rumoured to have shown interest in....Hopefully we find agreement soon on this one as feel DM is the biggest need in the squad...

 

[mccity]

I think too much is made of that.

Out of the 3, Jorginho is the smartest on the ball, & I'd say Fred the least, but the difference in quality between that & what Fernandinho does, is not worth getting over excited about imo. Fern is brilliant on the ball & can match any Youtube of Jorginho, if someone wanted to promote it to sell him. Jorginho has a bit more 'Silva' style creativity about him, Fred is quicker & more dynamic.

Neither play in the Prem, & the games where City find it difficult, they will too, just as Fern does. I'd ditch Gundogan & sign both personally.

This is without a doubt wrong. You made a similar point about Mangala and Stones last summer if I recall so I wonder if this is a topic you're well versed in. I'm confident anyone who is would back me up here.

 

[Andrew___K]

I think too much is made of that.

Out of the 3, Jorginho is the smartest on the ball, & I'd say Fred the least, but the difference in quality between that & what Fernandinho does, is not worth getting over excited about imo. Fern is brilliant on the ball & can match any Youtube of Jorginho, if someone wanted to promote it to sell him. Jorginho has a bit more 'Silva' style creativity about him, Fred is quicker & more dynamic.

Neither play in the Prem, & the games where City find it difficult, they will too, just as Fern does. I'd ditch Gundogan & sign both personally.

You're wrong, Jorginho would be a huge upgrade on Dinho, leading to a serious improvement of build-up play. You don't need a midfield specialist in winning the ball if you rarely lose it. Collective pressing replaces individual defensive qualities in such system.
The effect of improved build-up and ball-retention will be more significant than the drawbacks of having a less energetic player at the base of midfield. It's all about balance.

But we've discussed it numerous times, and you're still insisting that Dinho is almost ideal for City. He just isn't, his decision-making, passing and press-resistance leave a lot to be desired (for this particular system).

 

[Withnail]

You're wrong, Jorginho would be a huge upgrade on Dinho, leading to a serious improvement of build-up play. You don't need a midfield specialist in winning the ball if you rarely lose it. Collective pressing replaces individual defensive qualities in such system.
The effect of improved build-up will be more significant than the drawbacks of having a less energetic player at the base of midfield. It's all about balance.

But we've discussed it numerous times, and you're still insisting that Dinho is almost ideal for City. He just isn't, his decision-making, passing and press-resistance leave a lot to be desired.

So you are saying Dhinho is crap ? Dhino has been immense this season, he is not perfect but who is ?

 

[Rammyblues]

Best options if Jorginho talks drag on? With Fabinho off the market, it would seem Fred or Weigl are the only other options we've rumoured to have shown interest in....Hopefully we find agreement soon on this one as feel DM is the biggest need in the squad...

Why oh why am I not surprised, every time we deal with an italian club talks seem to last forever.

 

[pudge]

You're wrong, Jorginho would be a huge upgrade on Dinho, leading to a serious improvement of build-up play. You don't need a midfield specialist in winning the ball if you rarely lose it. Collective pressing replaces individual defensive qualities in such system.
The effect of improved build-up and ball-retention will be more significant than the drawbacks of having a less energetic player at the base of midfield. It's all about balance.

But we've discussed it numerous times, and you're still insisting that Dinho is almost ideal for City. He just isn't, his decision-making, passing and press-resistance leave a lot to be desired (for this particular system).

 

[Ballet On Ice]

You're wrong, Jorginho would be a huge upgrade on Dinho, leading to a serious improvement of build-up play. You don't need a midfield specialist in winning the ball if you rarely lose it. Collective pressing replaces individual defensive qualities in such system.
The effect of improved build-up and ball-retention will be more significant than the drawbacks of having a less energetic player at the base of midfield. It's all about balance.

But we've discussed it numerous times, and you're still insisting that Dinho is almost ideal for City. He just isn't, his decision-making, passing and press-resistance leave a lot to be desired (for this particular system).

Dino has been Superb for us this season, has he the passing range of Jorghino no he hasn't but very few have. Dino has proved it in the prem, I think Jorginho would be a superb signing but let's see how he manages in a fast prem midfield as opposed to the slower more tactical Italian midfield.
Also it gives Pep the option of using both of them at away matches such as the scouse cult club and Jorginho against teams that totally park the bus.
Also Dino could have the odd rest rather than expecting him to play 60 games in a season.

 

[mccity]

You're wrong, Jorginho would be a huge upgrade on Dinho, leading to a serious improvement of build-up play. You don't need a midfield specialist in winning the ball if you rarely lose it. Collective pressing replaces individual defensive qualities in such system.
The effect of improved build-up and ball-retention will be more significant than the drawbacks of having a less energetic player at the base of midfield. It's all about balance.

But we've discussed it numerous times, and you're still insisting that Dinho is almost ideal for City. He just isn't, his decision-making, passing and press-resistance leave a lot to be desired (for this particular system).

Thank you, now wait for people to interpret this as you saying Fernandinho is rubbish despite the fact that is in no way your argument, and miss your point completely about difference in abilities as a deep lying tempo controller a la Busquets.

 

[Danny_Johnson4]

Dino has been Superb for us this season, has he the passing range of Jorghino no he hasn't but very few have. Dino has proved it in the prem, I think Jorginho would be a superb signing but let's see how he manages in a fast prem midfield as opposed to the slower more tactical Italian midfield.
Also it gives Pep the option of using both of them at away matches such as the scouse cult club and Jorginho against teams that totally park the bus.
Also Dino could have the odd rest rather than expecting him to play 60 games in a season.

I get your point RE Fernandinho, hes a world class battering ram in our side, but you're way off the mark when you claim just because they're italian that Napoli are a slower more tactical midfield
Infact we have shown continuously in games we take the approach of killing a game dead by playing slow possession based stuff in the last half hour to conserve energy, hence why we rarely scored late goals from say february to april
Napoli have a far higher tempo press and pace in their build up than we do, just because they weren't as successful in the long run doesn't take that part of their game away from them. Some of the stuff they play out from the back in 1 touch is a joke.
Jorginho will allow us to build up and play at a higher level in our own half at places such as Anfield (and WHL if it were still as it once was) where Fernandino has been found wanting in possession year on year

 

[ak93city]

You're wrong, Jorginho would be a huge upgrade on Dinho, leading to a serious improvement of build-up play. You don't need a midfield specialist in winning the ball if you rarely lose it. Collective pressing replaces individual defensive qualities in such system.
The effect of improved build-up and ball-retention will be more significant than the drawbacks of having a less energetic player at the base of midfield. It's all about balance.

But we've discussed it numerous times, and you're still insisting that Dinho is almost ideal for City. He just isn't, his decision-making, passing and press-resistance leave a lot to be desired (for this particular system).

Top post on highlighting Jorginho's qualities and how it suits our system.

Unai Emery mentioned in a recent interview that both Alonso and Busquets lack pace but when a team keeps 70% of the ball you gain much much more with a superior ball playing DLP/DM than you gain with a superior destroyer who can cover a lot of the pitch and win balls. And Emery is pretty much Pep-like in his way of thinking about the game and regularly chats with Pep regarding football as evidenced by his recent interview with Marti Perarnau (which I highly recommend everyone to read as its excellent). Give up the idea that Dinho is the best for us when we'll have the option of Jorginho in the team.

It's a trade-off, like it or not. There is no such player who will do everything a Pep DM/DLP does AND do what Dinho does combined. In our team where we'll keep the ball 70-80% of the time, a superior ball playing player than Dinho will have a much larger impact overall and have less to lose.

Just because Jorginho is better suited doesn't automatically mean that Dinho is shit and useless because I sense Dinho diehard fans, in particular, have a tendency to feel this way. If for some reason you feel Dinho is great at dictating play, do consider why KDB was dropped deep since November/December.

 

[mccity]

Top post on highlighting Jorginho's qualities and how it suits our system.

Unai Emery mentioned in a recent interview that both Alonso and Busquets lack pace but when a team keeps 70% of the ball you gain much much more with a superior ball playing DLP/DM than you gain with a superior destroyer who can cover a lot of the pitch and win balls. And Emery is pretty much Pep-like in his way of thinking about the game and regularly chats with Pep regarding football as evidenced by his recent interview with Marti Perarnau (which I highly recommend everyone to read as its excellent). Give up the idea that Dinho is the best for us when we'll have the option of Jorginho in the team.

It's a trade-off, like it or not. There is no such player who will do everything a Pep DM/DLP does AND do what Dinho does combined. In our team where we'll keep the ball 70-80% of the time, a superior ball playing player than Dinho will have a much larger impact overall and have less to lose.

Just because Jorginho is better suited doesn't automatically mean that Dinho is shit and useless because I sense Dinho diehard fans, in particular, have a tendency to feel this way. If for some reason you feel Dinho is great at dictating play, do consider why KDB was dropped deep since November/December.

Your last paragraph may fall on deaf ears sadly

 

[ak93city]

Napoli have a far higher tempo press and pace in their build up than we do, just because they weren't as successful in the long run doesn't take that part of their game away from them. Some of the stuff they play out from the back in 1 touch is a joke.
Jorginho will allow us to build up and play at a higher level in our own half at places such as Anfield (and WHL if it were still as it once was) where Fernandino has been found wanting in possession year on year

This. It's very noticeable they play at a tempo ever so slightly above ours. Pep has always wanted his teams to pass the ball really quick to disrupt formations and find holes as a result. I still remember the pace at which his Bayern teams used to pass the ball around, was lightning quick more often than not.

I'm yet to see us reach that, hopefully soon, because it's really incredible to watch and can only imagine how useful it is on the pitch to break teams down AND avoid the press. Quick one-touch transitions in passing are the most lethal weapon against pressing teams because it exploits a lot of the space left open as a result of that pressing.

 

[mccity]

Also positioning is key for this role. One of the reasons the 5 at the back struggled at the start of the season was because Fernandinho was either too close to the defenders, or too close to the other midfielders, so our level of control was automatically weakened. Jorginho's positional intelligence would allow us to potentially revisit this formation.

 

[Ballet On Ice]

I get your point RE Fernandinho, hes a world class battering ram in our side, but you're way off the mark when you claim just because they're italian that Napoli are a slower more tactical midfield
Infact we have shown continuously in games we take the approach of killing a game dead by playing slow possession based stuff in the last half hour to conserve energy, hence why we rarely scored late goals from say february to april
Napoli have a far higher tempo press and pace in their build up than we do, just because they weren't as successful in the long run doesn't take that part of their game away from them. Some of the stuff they play out from the back in 1 touch is a joke.
Jorginho will allow us to build up and play at a higher level in our own half at places such as Anfield (and WHL if it were still as it once was) where Fernandino has been found wanting in possession year on year

I wasn't saying Napoli have a slow midfield, watching them last season they were very similar to us, the home game last season was one of the best I went to all season.
I was talking about Italian midfield play in general which is very tactical but normally a lot slower to the prem.
Yes keeping the ball and all the team pressing high to get it back reduces the need for a out and out Ball winner but Dino produced many needed tackles when teams did get through our press or broke quick.
I am excited about the possibility of Jorginho playing for us and his quick accurate ball forward will be gold to the likes of Kun and Sane.
But I am not going to just forget how Dino played until I see how Jorginho fits into the team because for all his passing and our pressing he will have to defend now and again.

Edit. Even if we were signing Lothar Matthaus I would still want to see how he fits in before binning off one of our players

 

[mccity]

I wasn't saying Napoli have a slow midfield, watching them last season they were very similar to us, the home game last season was one of the best I went to all season.
I was talking about Italian midfield play in general which is very tactical but normally a lot slower to the prem.
Yes keeping the ball and all the team pressing high to get it back reduces the need for a out and out Ball winner but Dino produced many needed tackles when teams did get through our press or broke quick.
I am excited about the possibility of Jorginho playing for us and his quick accurate ball forward will be gold to the likes of Kun and Sane.
But I am not going to just forget how Dino played until I see how Jorginho fits into the team because for all his passing and our pressing he will have to defend now and again.

As sensible as that point seems, it goes against the whole mentality of our approach. The second you start thinking you're going to need to defend at some point, is the second your confidence in the system starts to break down. We need that blinding belief in the Pep way for the Pep way to work.

It's weird, but it's necessary. It goes with the Pep line of thinking that is; if plan A doesn't work then instead of a plan B, maybe you need a better plan A.

 

[ak93city]

I wasn't saying Napoli have a slow midfield, watching them last season they were very similar to us, the home game last season was one of the best I went to all season.
I was talking about Italian midfield play in general which is very tactical but normally a lot slower to the prem.
Yes keeping the ball and all the team pressing high to get it back reduces the need for a out and out Ball winner but Dino produced many needed tackles when teams did get through our press or broke quick.
I am excited about the possibility of Jorginho playing for us and his quick accurate ball forward will be gold to the likes of Kun and Sane.
But I am not going to just forget how Dino played until I see how Jorginho fits into the team because for all his passing and our pressing he will have to defend now and again.

It may be the case we'll be more exposed every now and then, but that's the point mate the trade-off is key. Jorginho would provide more going front than we'd lose with him going back. Alonso and Busquets are very similar players in terms of this weakness and this quality to Jorginho. They've done quite alright.

It'll boil down to each of our temperament and how much risk we like to take which determines our comfort with either player. Jorginho could be risky (I honestly don't think he'll be so much more worse than Dinho) but the gains are larger for the occasional potential losses. If you're risk-averse and pessimistic you'll prefer Dinho but at the expense of those big gains.

Our manager is obviously on the risk-taking end of the spectrum, so I suspect Jorginho will be starting a fair bit more, barring colossal unexpected inadequacies, a la Bravo. Moreover, Jorginho get's a full summer to train, Dinho doesn't with WC + Holiday. Guess who'll be starting the season for us.