Labour plan to part re-nationalise rail network

[urmston]

Have you ever been to Germany?

Yes.

Everything is run more efficiently in Germany than here whether nationalised or not.

It is ridiculous and illogical to assume that nationalisation of our railways would cause them to be as efficient as German ones.

Our nationalised railways were dreadful. Our privatised railways are less dreadful. Things have improved.

It's equally ridiculous to assume that nationalised railways are terrible though. Since 'privatisation' we spend more public money on the railways. That's outrageous, we're literally funding private companies profits with taxpayers money.

I'd rather fund private profits for a private company and get a Ford Fiesta than pay state employees to make Austin Allegros and lose millions of taxpayers cash while doing it.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

Yes.

Everything is run more efficiently in Germany than here whether nationalised or not.

It is ridiculous and illogical to assume that nationalisation of our railways would cause them to be as efficient as German ones.

Our nationalised railways were dreadful. Our privatised railways are less dreadful. Things have improved.

It's equally ridiculous to assume that nationalised railways are terrible though. Since 'privatisation' we spend more public money on the railways. That's outrageous, we're literally funding private companies profits with taxpayers money.

I'd rather fund private profits for a private company and get a Ford Fiesta than pay state employees to make Austin Allegros and lose millions of taxpayers cash while doing it.

Given the gibberish you posted on the Speed Awareness thread yesterday, (which you promptly vacated after making yourself look foolish), I somehow doubt anyone will be surprised that you are utterly wrong on the railways too.
At least you are consistent.

 

[tidyman]

It's equally ridiculous to assume that nationalised railways are terrible though. Since 'privatisation' we spend more public money on the railways. That's outrageous, we're literally funding private companies profits with taxpayers money.

I'd rather fund private profits for a private company and get a Ford Fiesta than pay state employees to make Austin Allegros and lose millions of taxpayers cash while doing it.

Given the gibberish you posted on the Speed Awareness thread yesterday, (which you promptly vacated after making yourself look foolish), I somehow doubt anyone will be surprised that you are utterly wrong on the railways too.
At least you are consistent.

I don't know what the car equivalent of a 142 type train is, that are trundling all over the north of England. But it will be a pretty shit one. Those trains are that good that they are not even allowed on routes with steep gradients incase they don't make it up the hills.

 

[roaminblue]

I'd rather fund private profits for a private company and get a Ford Fiesta than pay state employees to make Austin Allegros and lose millions of taxpayers cash while doing it.

I don't have figures, but to make that statement, you're assuming that the privatised ticket fees are less than the proportional difference in your tax, should it be nationalised.

 

[urmston]

I'd rather fund private profits for a private company and get a Ford Fiesta than pay state employees to make Austin Allegros and lose millions of taxpayers cash while doing it.

I don't have figures, but to make that statement, you're assuming that the privatised ticket fees are less than the proportional difference in your tax, should it be nationalised.

Nationalisation is never a good idea.

The public sector always costs a lot, mainly because of the culture of good wages, fantastic pensions and generous terms and conditions for its employees. Lack of competition causes complacency and poor service.

We all remember how New Labour nearly bankrupted the country by vastly expanding the inefficient, nationalised, state employed sector of the economy. This promise about rail nationalisation is just more of the same.

 

[M18CTID]

Anyone know the operating figures for East Coast Trains? I'd be interested to know, given that they're a publically owned company. Also, for those that talk up Virgin's product, I'm led to believe East Coast are even better in terms of overall quality, etc.

I'm not sure whether re-nationalisation across the whole network will work but as someone who prefers the rattler to any other mode of transport for away games I'd welcome anything that improved service and reduced ticket prices.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

I'd rather fund private profits for a private company and get a Ford Fiesta than pay state employees to make Austin Allegros and lose millions of taxpayers cash while doing it.

I don't have figures, but to make that statement, you're assuming that the privatised ticket fees are less than the proportional difference in your tax, should it be nationalised.

Nationalisation is never a good idea.

Christ, you are hard work.
I'll try and explain in terms even you may grasp.
When the railways were publicly owned, they were far from perfect, and no sane person would argue otherwise.
But now they are privately owned, we have the worst of all worlds, in that we are paying more than ever in subsidies, for a less frequent service, on a much reduced network, which is more overcrowded, less safe, and miles more expensive than it was previously.
You clearly don't travel extensively on Britain's national rail network, because if you did you would be all too aware of this.
I had to stand up all the way back from Euston recently, despite having a pre-booked seat, the price of which could probably have bought me a standby ticket to New York.
And it was supposed to be first class, only Virgin, in their infinite wisdom, forgot to attach a first class carriage to the half dozen sardine tins they managed to find.
Booking any journey of length nowadays is a logistical nightmare which can often involve dozens of competing service providers, and a multitude of ticket options - it's just a shambles.
The bottom line is that things are just chaotic, and only stupid folk who consider rail nationalisation to be one step away from communist tyranny still cling to their outdated and intransigent beliefs, in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

 

[roaminblue]

Nationalisation is never a good idea.

I think that's subjective. As I posted previously, monopoly pricing is really only to the detriment of consumers, nationalised or not. There are some industries that I think should be kept out of the hands of the government, however there are others which I think the government can potentially create a better service. Whether they will or not, is again, up for debate.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that the way the rail service runs at the moment, and I can only argue from the line I take, is effectively allowing monopoly pricing. One operator, inelastic (and oversubscribed demand). Even just one more operator on that line would change the dynamics of pricing hugely. However, I see no sign of that; I imagine there are relatively high barriers to entry, possibly even regulations that don't allow an other service on the same line, I don't know. However, as it stands, we're stuck with the one service.

The public sector always costs a lot, mainly because of the culture of good wages, fantastic pensions and generous terms and conditions for its employees. Lack of competition causes complacency and poor service.

I don't know enough about the salaries in the public sector to be able to give any insight, to be honest.

However, on your second point, complacency, poor service (etc) are certainly not restricted to the public sector. The private sector suffers from a great deal of wastage, huge inefficiency and cronyism as well. A chap called Jensen has written a numerous (too many) papers on the subject of disconnect between firm managers and firm owners (i.e. shareholders). Effectively stating that managers and shareholders have different incentives; the former often have short-termism, the latter less so. Look at the number of shareholder revolts, or the number of public firms that were open to Leveraged Buyouts over the past few decades - this isn't because debt is better, its because people believe that a different capital structure can improve efficiencies.

We all remember how New Labour nearly bankrupted the country by vastly expanding the inefficient, nationalised, state employed sector of the economy. This promise about rail nationalisation is just more of the same.

I don't really see it like that. I'm sure there were a lot of instances where government backed initiatives have failed, but I'm not certain that's exclusively the Labour party.

Britain has problems. Huge projected future liabilities means governmental spending will go up unless there is a large shift in either immigration or wholesale pension and medical reforms. Labour party are not the exclusive owners of inefficiency and lax due diligence. Again, I think there incentive system is wrong.

 

[Bill]

British Rail were certainly 'not or profit'.

They lost millions, and the taxpayer footed the bill.

The trains were ancient, slow and late.

The staff went on strike regularly, just like public sector staff often do today.

Anyone who thinks nationalisation is a good idea is either too young go remember the bad old days or a railway employee who fancies the easy life with the state as boss, a monopoly of their business and all the freedom to strike and generally give poor service these things allow.

They could of course just be blinded by the fear of success.

I'm on the train right now to Edinburgh. Very nice train it is too.

 

[without a dream]

Anyone know the operating figures for East Coast Trains? I'd be interested to know, given that they're a publically owned company. Also, for those that talk up Virgin's product, I'm led to believe East Coast are even better in terms of overall quality, etc.

I'm not sure whether re-nationalisation across the whole network will work but as someone who prefers the rattler to any other mode of transport for away games I'd welcome anything that improved service and reduced ticket prices.

Returned £208m to the DfT according to their last public figures. They run a really good service, fairly reasonably priced advance tickets. The biggest issue is that Pikeys are constantly nicking the copper at Doncaster which leads to 'signalling problems' and some fairly hefty delays.