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Anonymous
Guest
So are Vieria and Barry no longer classed as defensive midfielders like i said all along?
Lesson learned eh,Bob?
- Thread starter 2sheikhs
- Start date
Gelsons Dad
Well-Known Member
schtipps said:
Hughes average 1.7 points per game
Mancini average 2.0 points per game
If Hughes was still in charge we would be in 7th place right now.
bizzbo
Well-Known Member
schtipps said:
hmmm.
there is a grain of truth in that, even if the idea of giving the credit for today's win to someone who has no connection to the club whatsoever anymore is a bit perverse.
today we did resemble the 4-4-2 that hughes used sometimes, with the pressing high up the pitch. but I reckon the key thing is, because our defensive record is good, and we absolutely do not throw away leads any more, burnley, just like every other team we face in the bottom half knew from before the whistle that if they conceded, there was no way back.
cleavers
Moderator
Marvin said:
Agreed but you're wasting your time. A 6-1 away win isn't enough for the ex managers entourage to give him any credit, its all pretty sad for me. We have a manager who has got 2 points per game since his arrival, and he still doesn't have a clue if you read some of the messages.
Rösler's Dad
Well-Known Member
bizzbo said:
Correct.
Mancini has ended up where Hughes wanted to be - the difference is that he has built it from the back, not from the front.
Also makes a difference (not so much today, but in general) to have Johnson rather than a woefully out of form SWP - Johnson is more two footed, has a better football brain and is generally more cultured. Though admittedly less likely to smack it off the laces into the net.
Some of the criticism that Mancio has copped for being 'defensive' has been absurd, as Marvin alluded to. The defence has been constructed - now we're seeing what the front 6 can do and it is devastating at times.
One caveat is that Hughes' team very rarely pressed high up the pitch IMO.
bizzbo
Well-Known Member
Rösler's Dad said:
conceeded... with the counter-caveat being that I was led to believe that was what hughes was after ;)
Rösler's Dad
Well-Known Member
bizzbo said:
Really? That is interesting. Happy to hear that if true, I could never understand why we conceded so much space - above all it seemed daft when we had tenacious bastards like Bellers, SWP, Tevez and Ireland who would've made hay winning the ball high up the pitch. Would go some way to reassuring me that Hughes has a bright future.
lostgalaxy
Well-Known Member
The lesson is to give the players the freedom to err.
Mancini first tried the error-minimizing approach. Worked to some extent. But in the end, he lets go. Or the players get loose.
There are only three styles of play:
1. with brain / discipline
2. with diligence / patience
3. with heart / inspiration
You can mix, but in the end you have to make a choice and stick to it.
Against the likes of Wigan and Burnley [under Law] we beat them to a T because we play the same styles only more classy.
Against Everton and Moyes who actually are very wise we stuck because thats how it often goes the wise beats the brave, but the brave beats the rest!
Look at Federer his record's negative against Nadal, Djorkovic and Murray but he's still easily number one!
With this in mind, I suggest we keep calm in view of Birmingham and Aston Villa. They are both very disciplined and everton-like, only not that sharp. Against MU is not difficult because MU is too much of a mixture can't say which style they play nowadays.
If we can at least draw Birmingham and Villa, then fourth is ours.
Mancini first tried the error-minimizing approach. Worked to some extent. But in the end, he lets go. Or the players get loose.
There are only three styles of play:
1. with brain / discipline
2. with diligence / patience
3. with heart / inspiration
You can mix, but in the end you have to make a choice and stick to it.
Against the likes of Wigan and Burnley [under Law] we beat them to a T because we play the same styles only more classy.
Against Everton and Moyes who actually are very wise we stuck because thats how it often goes the wise beats the brave, but the brave beats the rest!
Look at Federer his record's negative against Nadal, Djorkovic and Murray but he's still easily number one!
With this in mind, I suggest we keep calm in view of Birmingham and Aston Villa. They are both very disciplined and everton-like, only not that sharp. Against MU is not difficult because MU is too much of a mixture can't say which style they play nowadays.
If we can at least draw Birmingham and Villa, then fourth is ours.
bizzbo
Well-Known Member
lostgalaxy said:
fascinating. I agree to this extent. there will be no repeat against birmingham, because, yes, they are extremely disciplined, but more importantly, mcleish is far too wiley to make the elementary mistakes that Laws did today. we thrashed them because the of the gap between the defenders and the midfielders. adebayor and tevez had space to turn and run at them, and bellamy had the space to run inside to recieve short passes. mcleish will pack his midfield and leave no such space at all. we will probably end up having to go very wide again to try and tease out the gaps.
but overall I think I subscribe to a different theory on mancini's tactical progression with the team. it's not that he 'tried' the error minimising approach and then dumped it. rather that he implemented a coaching process. it began with the drills designed to instill a compact shape to the team, addressing the enormous problems that led to so many goals conceded under hughes, namely, the that defenders (and midfielders) were running forwards when they should be going backwards, out wide when they should be converging, generally, out of sync with each other, the back four spread out across the pitch, leading to unpredictable gaps between the two centre halves, between the centre halves and full backs, between centre midfield and the defence, between the wide players and the full backs. as the implementation of that progresses, and maintaining the proper shape became second nature, then you gradually unleash the creativity and movement of the midfielders and attackers, as they start to display a shared understanding of when 'free' movement is desirable, and when it's neccessary to hold back, or cover for a team mate.
it's like tennis, yes. if even a top player employs a new coach, he may insist on the player concentrating on basic defensive movements in match situations, before progressing to working on seeking out opportunities for winning shots.
the rules are there to be broken. but you have to be able to follow the rules very well before you can choose the right moment to do so. otherwise, the temptation is to seek a short-cut to success by breaking a rule out of habit, regardless of the tactical situation, leaving your opponent an obvious angle of attack that he can exploit time after time. you could call that state of affairs 'papering over the cracks'. you may well be dangerous to your opponent, but you are a danger to yourself as well.
lostgalaxy
Well-Known Member
bizzbo why don't we two think of a scheme to get rid of Brian Kidd and share his salary. We'll keep Mancini unless you like to go to the press conferences.
Kidding but yours a revealing post. Tks.
Kidding but yours a revealing post. Tks.
Bigga
Well-Known Member
Really really good post, Bizz.
bluemanc
Well-Known Member
I think Kidd is having a bigger influence,shame it wasn't a bit earlier.anymore than 2sheiks said:
He at last had the sense to play Ned & while Burnley weren't very good the pace & skill of our attackers was awesome,let's hope the penny's dropped & we go for it from now till the end of the season.
Yesterday was a great day.The only fly in the ointment for me was,starting a post complimenting Bob and some posters reading it as critisism of him,then throwing out personal abuse.I have supported Bob from day1 and he has surpassed what I thought he would achieve.(New country,having to hit the ground running etc).The only reason I reacted the way I did was because I have seen other posters put out reasonable points or questions and then get called "dicks,knobs,pricks,twats",when all they're doing is giving their point of view which they are entitled to.The mistake I made was reacting and lowering myself to their level.
Bill
Well-Known Member
bluemanc said:
100% spot on.