Media Thread - 2021/22

[levets]

Jake Humphrey got a real bashing by some Leeds fans on their channel, thought I'd share it:


edit: My mistake, I've just realised they are all Leeds fans(title threw me off and the accents), only slightly less funny in that case.

Excellent viewing

 

[ysmsa]

Wtf

Neville's interview on SSN,

The weird interviewer says

"Chelsea have been sanctioned because of Russia's war with Ukraine"

"Why haven't Newcaste because Saudi at war with Yemen"

So US & UK are never at War?

Dangerous how the media are playing this game just for the benefit of the fuckin red shirted shitehawks!

 

[Metalartin]

Wtf

Neville's interview on SSN,

The weird interviewer says

"Chelsea have been sanctioned because of Russia's war with Ukraine"

"Why haven't Newcaste because Saudi at war with Yemen"

So US & UK are never at War?

Dangerous how the media are playing this game just for the benefit of the fuckin red shirted shitehawks!

I don't get the argument he's making.

The UK government are the ones who've taken the decision to sanction all of Putin's connected parties, RA is one of those parties. This was not a decision about football club ownership. They are doing this because they think he might try and use some of their money to fund his war.

They've done no such thing for Saudi connected businesses or assets in the UK, quite the opposite in fact. Because the same justifications aren't there, it wouldn't make a difference what happens with Newcastle. I'm hearing the UK are currently in the process of strengthening the business/economic relationship with Saudi, the opposite of what is happening with Russia.

So what is happening with Chelsea, is no justification to sanction Newcastle as things stand. No matter how they spin it(and that's exactly what they are doing... spin).

 

[Mr.Banks]

I don't get the argument he's making.

The UK government are the ones who've taken the decision to sanction all of Putin's connected parties, RA is one of those parties. This was not a decision about football ownership. They are doing this because they think he might try and use some of their money to fund his war.

They've done no such think for Saudi connected businesses or assets in the UK, quite the opposite in fact. Because the same justifications aren't there, it wouldn't make a difference what happens with Newcastle. In fact, I'm hearing the UK are currently in the process of strengthening the business/economic relationship with the Saudi, the opposite of what is happening with Russia.

So what is happening with Chelsea, is no justification to sanction Newcastle as things stand. No matter how they spin it(and that's exactly what they are doing... spin).

It's whataboutery at it's finest. The WhatsApp group must be so proud

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I don't get the argument he's making.

The UK government are the ones who've taken the decision to sanction all of Putin's connected parties, RA is one of those parties. This was not a decision about football ownership. They are doing this because they think he might try and use some of their money to fund his war.

They've done no such think for Saudi connected businesses, quite the opposite in fact. Because the same justifications aren't there, it wouldn't make a difference what happens with Newcastle. In fact, I'm hearing the UK are currently in the process of strengthening the business/economic relationship with the Saudi, the opposite of what is happening with Russia.

Yemen & Ukraine are completely false equivalents.

Yemen is certainly an epic clusterfuck but the Saudis (and others) haven't gratuitously invaded a democratic sovereign state. The Saudis, backed by most Western nations incidentally, are supporting the legitimate government of President Hadi against an allegedly Iranian-backed Houthi insurgency. The Houthis are virulently antisemitic, with their leader having given a jaw-dropping interview to an Arab TV channel.

The Saudis have made big mistakes however. The seemingly indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Houthi-held areas is horrific. They made a major error of judgement when they murdered Jamal Khashoggi, who really wasn't much of a threat to them. That one, heinous, unnecessary act has had an impact way beyond any advantage the Saudis thought it brought them. That was a major strategic error that gave their critics massive ammunition.

But leaving that incident aside, plus the needless civilian deaths, there is simply no comparison between the Saudi action in Yemen and the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

 

[Metalartin]

Yemen & Ukraine are completely false equivalents.

Yemen is certainly an epic clusterfuck but the Saudis (and others) haven't gratuitously invaded a democratic sovereign state. The Saudis, backed by most Western nations incidentally, are supporting the legitimate government of President Hadi against an allegedly Iranian-backed Houthi insurgency. The Houthis are virulently antisemitic, with their leader having given a jaw-dropping interview to an Arab TV channel.

The Saudis have made big mistakes however. The seemingly indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Houthi-held areas is horrific. They made a major error of judgement when they murdered Jamal Khashoggi, who really wasn't much of a threat to them. That one, heinous, unnecessary act has had an impact way beyond any advantage the Saudis thought it brought them. That was a major strategic error that gave their critics massive ammunition.

But leaving that incident aside, plus the needless civilian deaths, there is simply no comparison between the Saudi action in Yemen and the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Yep, I just thought that's a lengthy discussion and always ends in people picking at the ins and outs.

You can shut him down by simply asking: "Have I missed the government sanctioning all Saudi related parties in the UK? Because that's the only scenario where you could level the argument of double standards".

 

[Citizen Green]

I've been doing a lot of thinking over the last few weeks since the Russian invasion of Ukraine regarding football ownership in this country, a lot of it heavy on the head, & to get it out of my system I'm going to stick it here, so apologies in advance for the long post about to follow:

The lens of the media, specifically our mainstream media, has firmly jolted in the direction of football club ownership after Putin's awful actions in Ukraine. How could a firm Putin ally end up owning one of the country’s biggest football clubs they ask? We've seen the sanctions which have removed his ownership seemingly overnight. This has clearly served to embolden our detractors. After all, according to them we are supposedly owned by a despotic regime with an awful human rights record. If Abramovich can be removed, why not 'state ownership' at Manchester City & Newcastle United?

The fact Manchester City are legally majority owned by Sheikh Mansour in a private capacity, with CMC & Silverlake minority owners, has done nothing to stop the 'state' owned jibes. In fact, it has never been stronger & is set in stone as a stick to beat City with by our detractors. Whether it be football journalists used as proxies by our American owned rivals, fuelled by football tribalism, using very serious issues to hide their true intent, or indeed Gary Neville on Sky, they have successfully used their platform to peddle their Sportswashing ‘state-owned’ narrative. Whoever let facts get in the way of a good story?

The irony of what is lost on these lot, is that the reason the game has developed to whereby clubs can only seek to consistently compete with the 'elite' is by being taken over by a Sheikh Mansour, Roman Abramovich or even Jack Walker, is down to their own doing and greed. These backstabbing clubs chose to close the door once they got into a position of power from the 1980's onwards & to cement themselves at the top, with long term & sustained competition cut. Whether it be through the monopolization of gate-receipts, the creation of the Premier League & Champions League, the ‘G14’, Bayern's dominance of Germany etc, I could go on as the list is endless. They wanted a closed shop where they could split their winnings & bollocks to the rest. Well, sorry boys, football was invented to be a sporting competition. The fact others have come along and blown their little plan & cartel apart they can't handle. They created the very landscape which ultimately has ended their own dominance. They can use their FFP, Super League, puppet journalists & 'state-owned' narrative all they want, we are here now and we set the bar.

Whilst we are on the subject, let's take a look at Sportswashing. What for the life of me I can't understand, is why someone would buy a football club, whether that be Manchester City, Newcastle or otherwise, to whitewash their image on the global stage? Owning these huge British institutions with a global platform offered by the Premier League does nothing but shine a very bright light on the ills of any willing owner. Whether that be Saudi Arabia in Newcastle's case (see Howe's questions after the Chelsea game) or the constant deriding of human rights abuses in the UAE whenever City are mentioned. It is literally the worst thing one could do to clean their image. They have hijacked what is a very serious matter & issue. Whether it be Qatar getting the World Cup through bribes or Beijing with the Winter Olympics, they have turned a serious issue into a football tribalist buzzword.

The reality of course when you look at these investments is a lot deeper than ‘sportswashing’. It is clearly part of a wider strategy of investing in the UK economy, whether it be through Sheikh Mansour diversifying his business portfolio with City & Virgin Galactic, or the Saudi's continuing their policy of investing in Western culture and institutions, like Newcastle United, or the other £65b they have invested in across the country for that matter. In our case, who can reasonably deny the success of Sheikh Mansour’s vision? He bought an ailing football club for £220m and has turned it into a £4b goliath. He could sell off his shares tomorrow and be in the green by at least £3b, the fact he has already sold millions in shares to CMC & Silverlake is testament to his investment and forward planning on a business level. Sportswashing? Get to fuck.

Now, FWIW, I don't believe Sheikh Mansour, like all billionaires, to be holier than thou. For example, the stuff I've posted about the ongoing 1MDB scandal today concerns me, and I sincerely hope it does indeed transpire to be a false allegation around bribery. He is part of an absolute monarchy who could do better on human rights in the UAE by Western standards. However, I've given ample reasons in this thread alone why it’s far from best practice for Westerners to sit in judgment of a region such as the Gulf. The British & French are responsible for creating the great divides there after WW1, which still permeate the region to this very day. Even more so we shouldn't be hammering countries like the Sharia practicing UAE, which are clearly Western leaning in their overall cultural outlook and is only 50 years old. Who are we to tell them that their culture is wrong? Why is ours right when we have caused so much division & suffering throughout the world with our failed promises & proxy wars?

In fact, whilst we are on moral issues, what of the undeniable positive influences the game has made on our owner? Why is more not made of him getting behind the establishment of LGBTQ supporters clubs? Being a key figure in the women’s football revolution we’ve seen in this country over the last 8 years? Investing in a completely run down part of East Manchester etc. It goes to show what the game can do, how it can lead to Western and Middle Eastern aligning, this is surely a force for good.

Now, what I can point to as fact, are the below contributions of Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al-Nahyen to Manchester, Manchester City Football Club & the United Kingdom:

- The transformation of Manchester City into a global leading football club through shrewd investment, infrastructure and planning.
- Putting money in to the game, not taking it out.
- Transforming East Manchester with investment in the local economy, infrastructure & education.
- Bailing out Barclays Bank at the height of the Great Recession in 2008.
- Investing in the UK economy and infrastructure in other cities.
- Playing a key role in supporting UK intelligence & security in the Middle East

A real evil stain destroying the game eh? The only thing he's destroyed is the old boys club that sought to drain it of its resources and split them between each other.

So, what say you Neville? If you want all clubs reverting to fan ownership, you go first. Bin off your palm oil partner Lim @ Salford, who funds your little projects and who made his money destroying the environment. Is he 'palmoilwashing'? Live up to your own word and bin him. By your own estimation his money can't be 'clean'? Don’t lobby for the removal of individuals who have done more for the Premier League, UK economy & security than you ever could hope to. Someone who has done nothing wrong. Don’t compare him, or his state for that matter, to a certain Roman Abramovich, who was enabled by a imperialist Russian lunatic who is now invading his neighbours & destabilizing Europe, that’s why he’s lost Chelsea FC. Would love to see you ‘independent auditor’ justify trying to end Sheikh Mansour’s ownership of City, on what possible grounds?

Sports journalists, lobby the government to end our security agreements in the Middle-East. Whether they be our trade agreements or cultural investments there, don't do any business with them yourself or use their investments for your own interests. Don't work for companies like The Independent that are part owned by the Saudis and last of all, don't be a two-faced twat and live by your word. You may wish it different, but football is a business at the heart of the world economy, so it attracts the worlds capitalists. Football ownership isn’t perfect in this country, but it also provides a lot of good.

 

[jim tolmies perm]

Hear, hear

I've been doing a lot of thinking over the last few weeks since the Russian invasion of Ukraine regarding football ownership in this country, a lot of it heavy on the head, & to get it out of my system I'm going to stick it here, so apologies in advance for the long post about to follow:

The lens of the media, specifically our mainstream media, has firmly jolted in the direction of football club ownership after Putin's awful actions in Ukraine. How could a firm Putin ally end up owning one of the country’s biggest football clubs they ask? We've seen the sanctions which have removed his ownership seemingly overnight. This has clearly served to embolden our detractors. After all, according to them we are supposedly owned by a despotic regime with an awful human rights record. If Abramovich can be removed, why not 'state ownership' at Manchester City & Newcastle United?

The fact Manchester City are legally majority owned by Sheikh Mansour in a private capacity, with CMC & Silverlake minority owners, has done nothing to stop the 'state' owned jibes. In fact, it has never been stronger & is set in stone as a stick to beat City with by our detractors. Whether it be football journalists used as proxies by our American owned rivals, fuelled by football tribalism, using very serious issues to hide their true intent, or indeed Gary Neville on Sky, they have successfully used their platform to peddle their Sportswashing ‘state-owned’ narrative. Whoever let facts get in the way of a good story?

The irony of what is lost on these lot, is that the reason the game has developed to whereby clubs can only seek to consistently compete with the 'elite' is by being taken over by a Sheikh Mansour, Roman Abramovich or even Jack Walker, is down to their own doing and greed. These backstabbing clubs chose to close the door once they got into a position of power from the 1980's onwards & to cement themselves at the top, with long term & sustained competition cut. Whether it be through the monopolization of gate-receipts, the creation of the Premier League & Champions League, the ‘G14’, Bayern's dominance of Germany etc, I could go on as the list is endless. They wanted a closed shop where they could split their winnings & bollocks to the rest. Well, sorry boys, football was invented to be a sporting competition. The fact others have come along and blown their little plan & cartel apart they can't handle. They created the very landscape which ultimately has ended their own dominance. They can use their FFP, Super League, puppet journalists & 'state-owned' narrative all they want, we are here now and we set the bar.

Whilst we are on the subject, let's take a look at Sportswashing. What for the life of me I can't understand, is why someone would buy a football club, whether that be Manchester City, Newcastle or otherwise, to whitewash their image on the global stage? Owning these huge British institutions with a global platform offered by the Premier League does nothing but shine a very bright light on the ills of any willing owner. Whether that be Saudi Arabia in Newcastle's case (see Howe's questions after the Chelsea game) or the constant deriding of human rights abuses in the UAE whenever City are mentioned. It is literally the worst thing one could do to clean their image. They have hijacked what is a very serious matter & issue. Whether it be Qatar getting the World Cup through bribes or Beijing with the Winter Olympics, they have turned a serious issue into a football tribalist buzzword.

The reality of course when you look at these investments is a lot deeper than ‘sportswashing’. It is clearly part of a wider strategy of investing in the UK economy, whether it be through Sheikh Mansour diversifying his business portfolio with City & Virgin Galactic, or the Saudi's continuing their policy of investing in Western culture and institutions, like Newcastle United, or the other £65b they have invested in across the country for that matter. In our case, who can reasonably deny the success of Sheikh Mansour’s vision? He bought an ailing football club for £220m and has turned it into a £4b goliath. He could sell off his shares tomorrow and be in the green by at least £3b, the fact he has already sold millions in shares to CMC & Silverlake is testament to his investment and forward planning on a business level. Sportswashing? Get to fuck.

Now, FWIW, I don't believe Sheikh Mansour, like all billionaires, to be holier than thou. For example, the stuff I've posted about the ongoing 1MDB scandal today concerns me, and I sincerely hope it does indeed transpire to be a false allegation around bribery. He is part of an absolute monarchy who could do better on human rights in the UAE by Western standards. However, I've given ample reasons in this thread alone why it’s far from best practice for Westerners to sit in judgment of a region such as the Gulf. The British & French are responsible for creating the great divides there after WW1, which still permeate the region to this very day. Even more so we shouldn't be hammering countries like the Sharia practicing UAE, which are clearly Western leaning in their overall cultural outlook and is only 50 years old. Who are we to tell them that their culture is wrong? Why is ours right when we have caused so much division & suffering throughout the world with our failed promises & proxy wars?

In fact, whilst we are on moral issues, what of the undeniable positive influences the game has made on our owner? Why is more not made of him getting behind the establishment of LGBTQ supporters clubs? Being a key figure in the women’s football revolution we’ve seen in this country over the last 8 years? Investing in a completely run down part of East Manchester etc. It goes to show what the game can do, how it can lead to Western and Middle Eastern aligning, this is surely a force for good.

Now, what I can point to as fact, are the below contributions of Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al-Nahyen to Manchester, Manchester City Football Club & the United Kingdom:

- The transformation of Manchester City into a global leading football club through shrewd investment, infrastructure and planning.
- Putting money in to the game, not taking it out.
- Transforming East Manchester with investment in the local economy, infrastructure & education.
- Bailing out Barclays Bank at the height of the Great Recession in 2008.
- Investing in the UK economy and infrastructure in other cities.
- Playing a key role in supporting UK intelligence & security in the Middle East

A real evil stain destroying the game eh? The only thing he's destroyed is the old boys club that sought to drain it of its resources and split them between each other.

So, what say you Neville? If you want all clubs reverting to fan ownership, you go first. Bin off your palm oil partner Lim @ Salford, who funds your little projects and who made his money destroying the environment. Is he 'palmoilwashing'? Live up to your own word and bin him. By your own estimation his money can't be 'clean'? Don’t lobby for the removal of individuals who have done more for the Premier League, UK economy & security than you ever could hope to. Someone who has done nothing wrong. Don’t compare him, or his state for that matter, to a certain Roman Abramovich, who was enabled by a imperialist Russian lunatic who is now invading his neighbours & destabilizing Europe, that’s why he’s lost Chelsea FC. Would love to see you ‘independent auditor’ justify trying to end Sheikh Mansour’s ownership of City, on what possible grounds?

Sports journalists, lobby the government to end our security agreements in the Middle-East. Whether they be our trade agreements or cultural investments there, don't do any business with them yourself or use their investments for your own interests. Don't work for companies like The Independent that are part owned by the Saudis and last of all, don't be a two-faced twat and live by your word. You may wish it different, but football is a business at the heart of the world economy, so it attracts the worlds capitalists. Football ownership isn’t perfect in this country, but it also provides a lot of good

I've been doing a lot of thinking over the last few weeks since the Russian invasion of Ukraine regarding football ownership in this country, a lot of it heavy on the head, & to get it out of my system I'm going to stick it here, so apologies in advance for the long post about to follow:

The lens of the media, specifically our mainstream media, has firmly jolted in the direction of football club ownership after Putin's awful actions in Ukraine. How could a firm Putin ally end up owning one of the country’s biggest football clubs they ask? We've seen the sanctions which have removed his ownership seemingly overnight. This has clearly served to embolden our detractors. After all, according to them we are supposedly owned by a despotic regime with an awful human rights record. If Abramovich can be removed, why not 'state ownership' at Manchester City & Newcastle United?

The fact Manchester City are legally majority owned by Sheikh Mansour in a private capacity, with CMC & Silverlake minority owners, has done nothing to stop the 'state' owned jibes. In fact, it has never been stronger & is set in stone as a stick to beat City with by our detractors. Whether it be football journalists used as proxies by our American owned rivals, fuelled by football tribalism, using very serious issues to hide their true intent, or indeed Gary Neville on Sky, they have successfully used their platform to peddle their Sportswashing ‘state-owned’ narrative. Whoever let facts get in the way of a good story?

The irony of what is lost on these lot, is that the reason the game has developed to whereby clubs can only seek to consistently compete with the 'elite' is by being taken over by a Sheikh Mansour, Roman Abramovich or even Jack Walker, is down to their own doing and greed. These backstabbing clubs chose to close the door once they got into a position of power from the 1980's onwards & to cement themselves at the top, with long term & sustained competition cut. Whether it be through the monopolization of gate-receipts, the creation of the Premier League & Champions League, the ‘G14’, Bayern's dominance of Germany etc, I could go on as the list is endless. They wanted a closed shop where they could split their winnings & bollocks to the rest. Well, sorry boys, football was invented to be a sporting competition. The fact others have come along and blown their little plan & cartel apart they can't handle. They created the very landscape which ultimately has ended their own dominance. They can use their FFP, Super League, puppet journalists & 'state-owned' narrative all they want, we are here now and we set the bar.

Whilst we are on the subject, let's take a look at Sportswashing. What for the life of me I can't understand, is why someone would buy a football club, whether that be Manchester City, Newcastle or otherwise, to whitewash their image on the global stage? Owning these huge British institutions with a global platform offered by the Premier League does nothing but shine a very bright light on the ills of any willing owner. Whether that be Saudi Arabia in Newcastle's case (see Howe's questions after the Chelsea game) or the constant deriding of human rights abuses in the UAE whenever City are mentioned. It is literally the worst thing one could do to clean their image. They have hijacked what is a very serious matter & issue. Whether it be Qatar getting the World Cup through bribes or Beijing with the Winter Olympics, they have turned a serious issue into a football tribalist buzzword.

The reality of course when you look at these investments is a lot deeper than ‘sportswashing’. It is clearly part of a wider strategy of investing in the UK economy, whether it be through Sheikh Mansour diversifying his business portfolio with City & Virgin Galactic, or the Saudi's continuing their policy of investing in Western culture and institutions, like Newcastle United, or the other £65b they have invested in across the country for that matter. In our case, who can reasonably deny the success of Sheikh Mansour’s vision? He bought an ailing football club for £220m and has turned it into a £4b goliath. He could sell off his shares tomorrow and be in the green by at least £3b, the fact he has already sold millions in shares to CMC & Silverlake is testament to his investment and forward planning on a business level. Sportswashing? Get to fuck.

Now, FWIW, I don't believe Sheikh Mansour, like all billionaires, to be holier than thou. For example, the stuff I've posted about the ongoing 1MDB scandal today concerns me, and I sincerely hope it does indeed transpire to be a false allegation around bribery. He is part of an absolute monarchy who could do better on human rights in the UAE by Western standards. However, I've given ample reasons in this thread alone why it’s far from best practice for Westerners to sit in judgment of a region such as the Gulf. The British & French are responsible for creating the great divides there after WW1, which still permeate the region to this very day. Even more so we shouldn't be hammering countries like the Sharia practicing UAE, which are clearly Western leaning in their overall cultural outlook and is only 50 years old. Who are we to tell them that their culture is wrong? Why is ours right when we have caused so much division & suffering throughout the world with our failed promises & proxy wars?

In fact, whilst we are on moral issues, what of the undeniable positive influences the game has made on our owner? Why is more not made of him getting behind the establishment of LGBTQ supporters clubs? Being a key figure in the women’s football revolution we’ve seen in this country over the last 8 years? Investing in a completely run down part of East Manchester etc. It goes to show what the game can do, how it can lead to Western and Middle Eastern aligning, this is surely a force for good.

Now, what I can point to as fact, are the below contributions of Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al-Nahyen to Manchester, Manchester City Football Club & the United Kingdom:

- The transformation of Manchester City into a global leading football club through shrewd investment, infrastructure and planning.
- Putting money in to the game, not taking it out.
- Transforming East Manchester with investment in the local economy, infrastructure & education.
- Bailing out Barclays Bank at the height of the Great Recession in 2008.
- Investing in the UK economy and infrastructure in other cities.
- Playing a key role in supporting UK intelligence & security in the Middle East

A real evil stain destroying the game eh? The only thing he's destroyed is the old boys club that sought to drain it of its resources and split them between each other.

So, what say you Neville? If you want all clubs reverting to fan ownership, you go first. Bin off your palm oil partner Lim @ Salford, who funds your little projects and who made his money destroying the environment. Is he 'palmoilwashing'? Live up to your own word and bin him. By your own estimation his money can't be 'clean'? Don’t lobby for the removal of individuals who have done more for the Premier League, UK economy & security than you ever could hope to. Someone who has done nothing wrong. Don’t compare him, or his state for that matter, to a certain Roman Abramovich, who was enabled by a imperialist Russian lunatic who is now invading his neighbours & destabilizing Europe, that’s why he’s lost Chelsea FC. Would love to see you ‘independent auditor’ justify trying to end Sheikh Mansour’s ownership of City, on what possible grounds?

Sports journalists, lobby the government to end our security agreements in the Middle-East. Whether they be our trade agreements or cultural investments there, don't do any business with them yourself or use their investments for your own interests. Don't work for companies like The Independent that are part owned by the Saudis and last of all, don't be a two-faced twat and live by your word. You may wish it different, but football is a business at the heart of the world economy, so it attracts the worlds capitalists. Football ownership isn’t perfect in this country, but it also provides a lot of good.

Hear , hear. Encapsulates everything I can't be arsed to opine

 

[jrb]

The City Journalist at the MUEN is f*cked then.

Regional journalists will be expected to generate increases of up to 70pc in online page views on their stories by the end of 2022 under new targets being set by their publisher. = More made up bullsh*t.

Reach plc launches new minimum page view targets for reporters - Journalism News from HoldtheFrontPage

Goals of between 80,000 and 850,000 per month set

www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk

 

[dadnlad]

The City Journalist at the MUEN is f*cked then.

Regional journalists will be expected to generate increases of up to 70pc in online page views on their stories by the end of 2022 under new targets being set by their publisher. = More made up bullsh*t.

Reach plc launches new minimum page view targets for reporters - Journalism News from HoldtheFrontPage

Goals of between 80,000 and 850,000 per month set

www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk

if they didnt have so many pop ups they might get 5%