Middle East Conflict

[west didsblue]

There are no two sides. I'm surprised, or should I be, that you've lumped everyone into two sides. There is the IDF with their rifles, there is the Israeli government, there is the Israeli people, there is the feda'ins with their ideologies, there is Palestinians protesting for the right of return.

Hamas and Palestinians are not one entity. The problem with arguments by some here is the stigmatisation of Palestinians wanting to, like you say, 'throw a nation into the sea'. What do they want? To get back to their town, get back to their home, build their house and live the life like they had previously. They care not one iota if Israelis from Russia or Poland rocking on next door to their house. It's not the first time they had Israeli friends in town. Palestine has already pushed for a two-state solution in 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 2000s, and early this year that follows the 1948 borders. Not a border all the way to the sea like you suggested. Israel will still have land of their own.

Palestinians are not asking for the first map. The 1948 borders will give Israel a sizeable portion of the land as per the UN Partition Plan. Anything is better to Palestinians than the fourth and current map.

I wondered when the propaganda maps would get an airing. Those maps are based on the false premise that there was a State of Palestine before 1948. Before 1917, it was all Ottoman land. Between 1917 and 1948 it was British. Between 1948 and 1967 the West Bank was Jordanian and Gaza was Egyptian. Israel controlled it all from 1967 until it started being handed over in after the Oslo accords when Palestine started to exist as it’s own state without defined borders.

 

[blueinsa]

Hard man you

You need to understand how the armed forces work.

By all means vent your anger and displeasure at the officers and politicians in charge who give the orders to shoot but those on the ground have no options but to comply with those orders.

Its how it works mate.

 

[andy1234uk]

Hard man you

Not in the slightest, it’s called rules of engagement. And I am sure the israelis were under rules of engagement.

Just been few your last few posts on here, could you be any more anti british? Thanks for coming.

 

[cucumberman]

I wondered when the propaganda maps would get an airing. Those maps are based on the false premise that there was a State of Palestine before 1948. Before 1917, it was all Ottoman land. Between 1917 and 1948 it was British. Between 1948 and 1967 the West Bank was Jordanian and Gaza was Egyptian. Israel controlled it all from 1967 until it started being handed over in after the Oslo accords when Palestine started to exist as it’s own state without defined borders.

It can go both ways. You can be seen to have taken into the propaganda that the map is a propaganda.

it is Ottoman land, but it is Ottoman Falastin land. Even the Ottoman Palestine's main paper was called Falastin, and many of those who lived in the Ottoman times regard themselves as Palestines. One example, The editor of the Falastin newspaper, Issa Al-Essa, was a Christian Palestine, and his family and the families that came before him, all referred themselves as Filastinians even before 1900s.

Here is another map reconstructing Herodotus and the time then of Palestine, c. 450. Look at what's in the middle of the map where Israel is.

Are you going to say that the propaganda has been sustained for more than 1600 years?

 

[west didsblue]

It can go both ways. You can be seen to have taken into the propaganda that the map is a propaganda.

it is Ottoman land, but it is Ottoman Falastin land. Even the Ottoman Palestine's main paper was called Falastin, and many of those who lived in the Ottoman times regard themselves as Palestines. One example, The editor of the Falastin newspaper, Issa Al-Essa, was a Christian Palestine, and his family and the families that came before him, all referred themselves as Filastinians even before 1900s.

The Palestine Post pre 1948 was a Jewish newspaper. Naming a newspaper after a place name is not unusual. Most Palestinian Arabs just referred to themselves as Arabs pre 1948. The Jews were known as the Palestinians more than the Arabs pre 1948. In fact, years ago in South Manchester Palatine Road was often referred to as Palestine Road because of the large Jewish population. Another example is that the Israel FA was founded by Jews in 1928 as the Palestine FA. All of this is not really relevant. It just shows that nothing is clear cut and those maps are very misleading.

 

[cucumberman]

The Palestine Post pre 1948 was a Jewish newspaper. Naming a newspaper after a place name is not unusual. Most Palestinian Arabs just referred to themselves as Arabs pre 1948. The Jews were known as the Palestinians more than the Arabs pre 1948. In fact, years ago in South Manchester Palatine Road was often referred to as Palestine Road because of the large Jewish population. All of this is not really relevant. It just shows that nothing is clear cut and those maps are very misleading.

I'm not referring to the Palestine post, you got that one wrong. The Palestine Post was made in 1932 and was renamed Jerusalem Post. Not sure why you would think that would be I was referring to considering I also mentioned its Christian Palestine founder Issa el-Essa.

Filastin is a paper founded in 1911 and was written for Christian Palestinians and Arab Palestinians. The language was Palestinian Arabic. A notable event was when Albert Einstein wrote to the newspaper to request for the approval of Arab Palestines, yes Arab Palestines, for Jews to be welcomed as part of the Arab Palestine community. He assured that the Jewish people will be willing to be part of and contribute to the Arab community.

Surprised that you mistook Filastin for Jerusalem Post.

 

[west didsblue]

I'm not referring to the Palestine post, you got that one wrong. The Palestine Post was made in 1932 and was renamed Jerusalem Post. Not sure why you would think that would be I was referring to considering I also mentioned its Christian Palestine founder Issa el-Essa.

Filastin is a paper founded in 1911 and was written for Christian Palestinians and Arab Palestinians. The language was Palestinian Arabic. A notable event was when Albert Einstein wrote to the newspaper to request for the approval of Arab Palestines, yes Arab Palestines, for Jews to be welcomed as part of the Arab Palestine community. He assured that the Jewish people will be willing to be part of and contribute to the Arab community.

Surprised that you mistook Filastin for Jerusalem Post.

I didn’t.
I was simply pointing out examples of newspapers and other things being named after the area like the Filastin and the Palestine Post.

 

[cucumberman]

I didn’t.
I was simply pointing out examples of newspapers and other things being named after the area like the Filastin and the Palestine Post.

Falastin was not named after the area, it was named after the country.

Here's the letter by Albert Einstein:

One who, like myself, has cherished for many years the conviction that the humanity of the future must be built up on an intimate community of the nations, and that aggressive nationalism must be conquered, can see a future for Palestine only on the basis of peaceful cooperation between the two peoples who are at home in the country. For this reason I should have expected that the great Arab people will show a truer appreciation of the need which the Jews feel to rebuild their national home in the ancient seat of Judaism; I should have expected that by common effort ways and means would be found to render possible an extensive Jewish settlement in the country. I am convinced that the devotion of the Jewish people to Palestine will benefit all the inhabitants of the country, not only materially, but also culturally and nationally. I believe that the Arab renaissance in the vast expanse of territory now occupied by the Arabs stands only to gain from Jewish sympathy. I should welcome the creation of an opportunity for absolutely free and frank discussion of these possibilities, for I believe that the two great Semitic peoples, each of which has in its way contributed something of lasting value to the civilisation of the West, may have a great future in common, and that instead of facing each other with barren enmity and mutual distrust, they should support each other's national and cultural endeavours, and should seek the possibility of sympathetic co-operation. I think that those who are not actively engaged in politics should above all contribute to the creation of this atmosphere of confidence.

And from the letter, I bring your attention to the line below, because even Albert Einstein and the community then referred to the region as Palestine, the country.

I am convinced that the devotion of the Jewish people to Palestine will benefit all the inhabitants of the country, not only materially, but also culturally and nationally.

 

[Magicpole]

You need to understand how the armed forces work.

By all means vent your anger and displeasure at the officers and politicians in charge who give the orders to shoot but those on the ground have no options but to comply with those orders.

Its how it works mate.

It’s actualky not. If you are given orders that you feel are excessive and could lead to killing people you have the right and duty to refuse.

I was only following orders hasnt washed at war crime courts for a while now.

Live bullets on people with petrol bombs is excessive. Israel will get away with it became Trump will back them against the UK’s call for a full inquiry.

 

[blueinsa]

It’s actualky not. If you are given orders that you feel are excessive and could lead to killing people you have the right and duty to refuse.

I was only following orders hasnt washed at war crime courts for a while now.

Live bullets on people with petrol bombs is excessive. Israel will get away with it became Trump will back them against the UK’s call for a full inquiry.

I agree it was disproportionate but to suggest the soldiers on the ground should refuse to comply with the orders being given by ranking officers and political leaders is frankly pie in the sky and doesn't reflect how all armed forces operate and that was my point.

If a war crimes court feels it can take senior Israel commanders to court for war crimes then the best of luck to them. I will wager though the IDF bods on the ground are much like our own, just following orders and i dont see anyone clamouring to see all of our boys and girls dragged to the hague and for good reasons.