Middle East Conflict

We shoot knife-wielding terrorists. That's hardly proportionate. We could tackle them; the police have batons and tasers.

When under threat, police and ultimately armed forces will act accordingly and use whatever force necessary and authorised.

I've no issue with anyone disagreeing with and challenging Israel's leadership both politically and within the IDF but those on the ground over there are doing what any other would given the exact same orders and rules of engagement from above and the citizens they are protecting have their 100% backing and that is the reality of the situation.
 
When under threat, police and ultimately armed forces will act accordingly and use whatever force necessary and authorised.

I've no issue with anyone disagreeing with and challenging Israel's leadership both politically and within the IDF but those on the ground over there are doing what any other would given the exact same orders and rules of engagement from above and the citizens they are protecting have their 100% backing and that is the reality of the situation.
That is exactly the point. They made it clear that there was a 300m exclusion zone by the border fence and that they could shoot anyone who infringed that. I think we'd all prefer they didn't shoot but, as the FT article made clear, there is a rare consensus within Israel that supports the IDF in this.
 
We shoot knife-wielding terrorists. That's hardly proportionate. We could tackle them; the police have batons and tasers.
I rarely ever post in a thread of this sort but your post above is appalling
Perhaps you should tell the family of PC Keith Palmer tackling knife wielding lunatics is straightforward. Comparing it to shooting people from a distance cheapens you're argument and lends credence to the people on the other side of the debate that the Israeli army acted like animals.
 
I rarely ever post in a thread of this sort but your post above is appalling
Perhaps you should tell the family of PC Keith Palmer tackling knife wielding lunatics is straightforward. Comparing it to shooting people from a distance cheapens you're argument and lends credence to the people on the other side of the debate that the Israeli army acted like animals.

I’m not sure his point was that police should tackle knife wielding lunatics with batons to be fair
 
I rarely ever post in a thread of this sort but your post above is appalling
Perhaps you should tell the family of PC Keith Palmer tackling knife wielding lunatics is straightforward. Comparing it to shooting people from a distance cheapens you're argument and lends credence to the people on the other side of the debate that the Israeli army acted like animals.
You’ve missed the point entirely Steve. I never suggested it was straightforward but that it was “proportionate” whatever that means. It’s the requirement to be “proportionate” that I’m questioning.

Let’s try to be clearer - there’s an armed policeman confronting an attacker carrying a knife, a hammer or something. The attacker is 50 yards or more away from the police officer so poses no direct threat at that point. The officer tells the attacker that he will shoot if he comes any closer and doesn’t drop his weapon yet the terrorist advances and refuses to drop the weapon. Maybe he’s already attacked other people. So the officer shoots. I think most wouldn't really quibble with that but it’s not “proportionate” is it? It’s reacting to a potential threat. Had Keith Palmer been armed then he would have been fully justified in shooting Masood, even if he wasn’t directly threatened. He’d already caused harm to other people on the bridge.

Now imagine thousands of people trying to rip down a border fence. You know some are armed with firearms and have Molotov cocktails or other devices capable of killing or injuring you. You’ve told those people what will happen if they continue to do that and they know full well you’ll carry out that threat. What should they do? Let them rip down the fence and only shoot when they get attacked themselves or one of the nearby towns gets attacked? It’s not like Hamas are a formerly peaceful group of people who don’t have form for attacking Israel.
 
My simple mind has already worked out that the Israeli goverment is murdering Palestinians. If i child throws a rock, a sniper will return with a bullet. As you said in your earlier post and this one you have no problem with this.

Good for you.

Well from the Israeli perspective I would suggest they are defending themselves from people firing protectively that are half bricks. If they did not retaliate the mob would descend closer and then civilians behind the walls who the Israeli soldiers are sworn to defend become vulnerable.

I would say they are not targeting children, but if you are likely to operate these slings that are the size of an adult, the likelihood is that you are an adult and responsible for your actions. You say it as if a child throws a rock like he can throw half a brick 300m, I suggest you go look at these slings in operation. Where did I state I had no problem with children being sniped? I didn’t, get off your high horse and debate.

I would ask for proof that a sniper is responsible for killing a child? I would also suggest in probability, that it is chaos and the people throwing slinged projectiles are surrounded, possibly intentionally, by women and children.

Israelis murder Palestinians in greater numbers due to their finance.

Palestinians murder Israelis in smaller numbers due to their lack of finance.

They both still murder, or as they both see it, casualties of war.

Both sides are deluded, bias and full on propaganda machines. Like I said, this will never stop and our grand children will still be debating this idiocy on both sides. I just hope you teach yours to look at things from an unbiased angle and look at both sides, which are as bad as the other.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. You’re from Dublin so I sympathize with why you are seeing the freedom fighter aspect.

I bet you would have picked up on one point in this comment and tried to run with it.
 
A few definitions here

You know which one Einstein was referring to.

Back to the maps. There is no consistency in the four maps.

Highly contested opinion if you read on the extensive commentary against McGraw-Hill. Renowned cartographers also support the four maps as an informative illustration on land possession.

The first map inaccurately compares Jewish owned land with non-Jewish owned land and assumes all non-Jewish owned land is Palestinian owned, whereas the reality was that much of the land was owned by absentee landlords from Cairo, Damascus and Istanbul and large areas of the Negev desert weren’t owned by anyone.

A few points here since you brought up absentee landlords. The whole region of Israel and Gaza, West Bank amount to 28,092 km2. From and up to 1944, Israeli has bought a total of 906.80 km2 of land. Of these, 25% were sold by Palestine Arabs, and 52% were sold under the nuance of absentee landlords. Two things:

1. The fact that 25% of the land bought were Palestinian owned imply that Palestinians do own a sizeable portion of the land area. In fact, the United Nations Conciliation Commissions for Palestine has a record of not less than 530,000 land ownership records owned by Palestinians. Here is a detailed map of land ownership in Palestine.

16


2. Despite the ownership being recorded by UNCCP, I feel you may still want to argue that the 52% non Palestinian owned land were owned by absentee landlords. Now, The absentee landlords lands were not bought but rather appropriated in a clever way that, playing devil's advocate, because there is a lack of documentation recorded by UNCCP, the land is declared owned by an 'absentee landlord'. A special hearing was made in 1930s by MK Tichon, Orok and several other MKs questioning how land is concluded as having an absentee landlord. The inquest found that because the land was not declared, the mukhtar of the town/village, in exchange for money, can produce an affidavit out of thin air that the land can be bought from the mukhtar based on it being owned by an 'absentee landlord'. As how you allude to the idea that Negev desert was not owned by anyone, these lands were actually not owned by any absentee landlord, but rather either owned by a Palestinian who was oblivious his land was being sold by the mukhtar, or have no ownership thus making those who were evicted from these land the landowner in the first place based on the mandate that land with inhabitants cannot be purchased or taken. Adding to this, we also have the absentee landlords who are 'present absentees'. Present absentees are classified as Palestinians who left or were expelled from their land by Israeli forces even for a short duration of time without leaving the Israel boundary, even when the move is involuntary, they lose the legal right to their possession and their land. These Palestinians lands, their Palestinian owners driven away thus classifying them as present absentees, are also land under absentee landlords. So, you see, the usage of the term 'absentee landlord' was a convenient loophole to allow for the appropriation of land.

And on Negev, The Negev desert may not be documentedly owned by anyone, as title deeds are not compulsory registered and claims of ownership were regulated by private unregistered conveyances, but an official national census conducted on the Negev area listed more than 53,000 Bedu Palestines.

The first map is only inaccurate if you refute firstly the records of land ownership in UNCCP, secondly the revelation of the hearing on how 'absentee landlords' were declared, and thirdly the idea that many parts of the land were not owned by anyone.

The second map reflects a UN plan that was rejected by the Arabs and was never reflected by either land ownership or political control.

See the comment on land ownership above and why it has been rejected. The two state solution however has been revisited by Palestine and preconditional to a 1948 border, with Jerusalem included and the right of return, a compromised two state solution has repeatedly been suggested by Palestinians, regardless of opinions from the Arab league.

The third map reflects political control only and does not reflect anything to do with land ownership as there are still many Arab towns and villages within Israel.

Does this not contradict your argument? If there are still many Arab towns and villages within Israel, what do you think they were part of in the first place? There are indeed several Arab towns and villages within Israel populated by Arabs who refer themselves as Palestinians.

The final map is an inaccurate representation of the current political control and again does not bear any relationship to land ownership.

By this time, land ownership is no longer the humanitarian concern. What we have in the fourth map is definitely political control whereby failure to comply to stay within the designated Palestinian zones result in being killed. Which is why discussion on land ownership based on the current situation dilutes the more humanistic argument of Palestinians in Gaza crammed in 390km2 of space with more than 5000 people per square kilometre of land when divided equally, making it the 3rd most dense boundary locked area in the world like Hong Kong and Singapore. Unlike the two other countries however, Gaza doesn't have skyscrapers and high rise living, nor does it have clean water, sufficient amenities, enough food, freedom to travel, open ports, employment opportunities and the right to protest.

So basically the maps pick and choose facts to reflect the narrative.

Doesn't mean the facts are wrong or inaccurate. They are after all, recorded and documented throughout the years.
 
We are not talking the colors on a map but the real people who lived there and build homes, villages, small towns and worked their land, Was the land purchased off them off by the displaced Jews of Europe, or was the money used to buy guns and tanks to steal it?.
Again it comes down to the same problem, it was murder and theft then, it still is, one day a child or even a grandchild of the victims will get their hands on a nuke or biological weapon and Tel aviv will be a smoking hole in the ground, its not an if but a when, meanwhile Israel keeps earning the hate.
 
Complete bollocks but unsurprising from you where Israel is concerned.
Why is it bollocks? As you already should know I'm no fan of Netanyahu. But let's ignore that and talk specifics.

Disproportionate means excessive in relation to something else. Therefore in literal terms it's disproportionate to shoot someone who can't shoot back. So I'm not arguing that using guns against protestors isn't disproportionate in that sense. Obviously it is. As is using drones against terrorists who are thousands of miles away from you.

If we're talking legally then I am saying is that there is no absolute legal requirement, when your or your country's security is involved, to be proportionate. The law on proportionality in conflict does not automatically class civilian casualties as a war crime, just that they should not be excessive in relation to the military objective. It is arguable under international law whether the Hamas-led demonstrators were even "civilians" in the strictest sense of the word. The IDF snipers weren't picking off people who were peacefully going about their business. They were shooting at people who had broken their rules of engagement, which the demonstrators were presumably aware of, and therefore might well be considered combatants rather than civilians.

Now I'm not saying I thought they were morally right to do that. But without being there and knowing exactly how it went down, it could be that they were within their rights, even if that may not be to your or my taste. You could well argue that the protection of your border against people who want to harm you is a military objective. Therefore shooting 60 people, however regrettable, may not be considered disproportionate under international law. Had they mortared or indiscriminately machine-gunned people outside their imposed exclusion zone then that might well, in fact probably would, be considered legally disproportionate.
 

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