Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[Chippy_boy]

The Palestinisn authority has rejected a very good deal 3 or 4 times since 1994. So sadly, there probably isn't such a deal to be had.

I don't know the details but maybe they weren't "very good" deals? IMO if Israel wants lasting peace, it's going to have to dig deep and make some serious compromises. Hamas feeds upon a feeling of resentment and perceived (or real) persecution and unfortunately at the moment, all Israel is doing is fuelling that. As soon as this conflict is over, Hamas will be more resolutely determined to attack Israel again, and, supported by Iran and others, will find the means to do so.

 

[Palerider]

So Hamas said they will release hostages if Israel stop bombing, and Israel said they will stop bombing if Hamas release the hostages, fuck me

You stop doing your atrocities and we will stop doing our atrocities. Your atrocities just lead to more people joining the IDF/Hamas so stop and the atrocities will stop. You show pictures of babies beheaded and in ovens and we will show pictures of bombed dead babies. Oh for a world filled with reasonable people.

 

[Palerider]

Yep I think the political pressure would be too much if hamas released the hostages and Israel carried on their bombing campaign.

Probably. But there was an interview with an Hamas commander over the weekend who, when asked, "Why don't you let the people use the tunnels as bomb shelters?" answered 'No, the tunnels are for Hamas fighters, the UN look after the people'.

 

[Vic]

Very depressing. For me a two state solution is a fair compromise but on googling 'Does Israel/Palestine support a two state solution" it would seem that the majority (65% and 67%) do not either want or believe a two state solution is possible. A fight to the death it is then.

Do not want and do not believe are very different.

 

[arbabarshad]

The terror in this child’s eyes is truly heartbreaking.

When you “stand with Israel”, you stand with a terrorist state, plain and simple. No morals, no humanity.

 

[halfcenturyup]

If anyone was to post video clearly showing the execution of innocent citizens then it would be rightly criticised by everyone imo.

What we get is a video that has no context, no real evidence of anyone being killed, irrespective of who they may or might not be and you are supposed to just lap it up and join in with the narrative.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way and it shouldn't work that way for anyone.

Did you believe the Israelis when they say a senior Hamas commander and dozens of fighters were killed when they bombed the refugee camp?

 

[BlueAnorak]

Not quite true, but the last deal offered was very good but in context it was offered by a lame duck Israeli PM, but I believe it will be the basis of a new deal because it’s the only one that offers compromise and it was a very creative solution to the Jerusalem problem

Groups like Hamas need the conflict to go on, it’s how they make a living , the same could be said for the Israeli right perpetual threat and conflict is good for them all

One deal offered was essentially the Bantistan option which was rightly rejected I don’t recall any others care to enlighten me?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-never-said-no-to-2008-peace-deal-says-former-pm-olmert/

Well the Israelis will point to this (one of many):

A Short History of Palestinian Rejectionism

The consistent and enduring Palestinian rejection of any and all peace initiatives with Israel, most recently the “Deal of the Century,” calls into question the commitment of the Palestinian leade

besacenter.org

And the Palestinians will point to this (one of many):

Palestinian views on the peace process - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I'm off the opinion that the Palestinians are the ones mainly to blame as the MAJORITY won't be happy unless there is a single state solution. A large minority actually don’t even accept the OSLO accords and a small minority want Israel to cease to exist (e.g Hamas). A minority of Israeli's will always try and block but when pushed by the US they move - but that requires movement from the Palestines to succeed. It never happens.

 

[The blue phantom]

You stop doing your atrocities and we will stop doing our atrocities. Your atrocities just lead to more people joining the IDF/Hamas so stop and the atrocities will stop. You show pictures of babies beheaded and in ovens and we will show pictures of bombed dead babies. Oh for a world filled with reasonable people.

Glad you're finally on board about the Israeli Goverment/Idf committing Atrocities/War Crimes and being terrorist.

 

[blueinsa]

Did you believe the Israelis when they say a senior Hamas commander and dozens of fighters were killed when they bombed the refugee camp?

I don’t believe much of what is being said from either side and even less from clearly biased sources on twitter etc.

It’s all part of the fog of war, the campaign for hearts and minds and propaganda.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Yep I think the political pressure would be too much if hamas released the hostages and Israel carried on their bombing campaign.

unless they had done all of what they set out to do Israel would just claim HAMAS had held a few back and carry on bombing

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

So Hamas said they will release hostages if Israel stop bombing, and Israel said they will stop bombing if Hamas release the hostages, fuck me

Needs someone in the middle to do a countdown.
3-2-1 Go.

 

[Vic]

Well the Israelis will point to this (one of many):

A Short History of Palestinian Rejectionism

The consistent and enduring Palestinian rejection of any and all peace initiatives with Israel, most recently the “Deal of the Century,” calls into question the commitment of the Palestinian leade

besacenter.org

And the Palestinians will point to this (one of many):

Palestinian views on the peace process - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I'm off the opinion that the Palestinians are the ones mainly to blame as the MAJORITY won't be happy unless there is a single state solution. A large minority actually don’t even accept the OSLO accords and a small minority want Israel to cease to exist (e.g Hamas). A minority of Israeli's will always try and block but when pushed by the US they move - but that requires movement from the Palestines to succeed. It never happens.

If those two sites are all you've read about the peace process I'm not surprised that's your opinion.

There's plenty of material about the sticking points on the various proposed peace deals.

I'm not even sure it's worth apportioning "blame", rather than seeking to understand what the sticking points were - and what in the future might be done to unstick those points.

 

[Scottyboi]

People having to undergo amputations without anesthesia, disgraceful.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

Arab/Palestinian experience in Israel right now:

Today in Israel, I’m not allowed to voice an opinion. Palestinian citizens of Israel have been forcefully silenced and threatened for any social media activity that isn’t in line with Israeli Hasbara. There’s a serious witch hunt going on. Full blown McCarthyism.

Hundreds have been detained, fired from their jobs. Hundreds have been threatened by Jewish citizens with physical harm. Authorities and law makers threatening to revoke our citizenship.

I’ll remain quiet for now in regards to the main issues rather than taking the risk of being ratted out like four of my friends who have been arrested for:

1) Following an Instagram page called eye on Palestine.
2) Sharing a post by an Israeli Jew on Facebook that accused Israel of genocide (the Israeli Jew has not been arrested, the Arab who shared the Jew’s post did get arrested).
3) Posting an instagram story sympathizing with the children of Gaza and calling for a ceasefire.
4) Being ratted out by her Jewish “friend” who shared screenshots of a private conversation they had on facebook, where she said there’s no evidence of beheadings. She’s been detained for three days, bullied by tens of thousands online, with the screenshots broadcasted on television.

An Arab medical doctor got fired because of an old profile pictures on Facebook that contain Quran texts. A political analyst got arrested for posting an objective analysis of the breach on the 7th.

Meanwhile Jewish citizen have been calling for a final solution, mocking Palestinian suffering, and dehumanizing them. Telegram groups with thousands of members rife with organizing pogroms and lynches without any consequences. Hell, they’re even posting videos of urinating on Palestinian dead bodies, stabbing them and poking their eyes out. Zero consequences.

My supposedly leftist Jewish colleagues have turned into vengeful right wing snitches.

I have been threatened by my Jewish neighbor (that I’ve had good neighborly relationship with) telling me he’s sick of hearing me speaking Arabic in the building, when I stood my ground, with his veins popping out of his neck he threatened “I’ll do another Nakba to you”.

Most importantly, we've been warned not to protest by the police commissioner as the police won’t hesitate to use live ammunition. So we just have to live with the grief, the shame, the anger and the sense of defeatedness while all of this is happening.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I don’t believe much of what is being said from either side and even less from clearly biased sources on twitter etc.

It’s all part of the fog of war, the campaign for hearts and minds and propaganda.

Same here.
I would say, at the risk of offending people in here that I take postings in here that state as fact what clearly is opinion, with the same degree of scepticism.

There’s been a few in here that have genuinely surprised me, but as I keep saying, in general I think the discussion has been cordial and largely fair.

I am currently struggling to find reliable news outlet that would be respected by all in here.
I have looked at an interview with an ex UN weapons inspectors that takes a dim view of Israel’s intentions towards a two state solution, going back a long way. I’ll check him out further however before putting it up here.

I am halfway through a very long interview with Amira Hass who does seem to be one of the most respected objective journalists and an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Her views are very interesting. She’s on YouTube but I’ll wait until I finish it before deciding to post or not.
It is very long and detailed.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I don’t believe much of what is being said from either side and even less from clearly biased sources on twitter etc.

It’s all part of the fog of war, the campaign for hearts and minds and propaganda.

Given that this is your stance, how can you be so firmly one one side?

I don’t post much in here as my knowledge of the nuance isn’t great.

It just seems that both sides want to kill as many as possible and that can’t be right.

 

[Jazzyblue]

Which is why we need moderate leadership on both sides to negotiate the borders of two co-existing states, and why vile terrorists like Hamas and right wing extremists like Netanyahu need to get fucked off, and why posting context free inaccurate maps going back 100 years doesn’t help the discussion.

After 846 pages - wow - I feel like I'm gatecrashing this thread chipping in at this stage, but the post above is an absolutely key point, apologies if the points I make have been made before.

This conflict is being packaged to us as a conflict between a Western democracy and Islamist nutters. But the truth is the forces leading Netanyahu are largely far right or fundamentalist, they are not interested in liberalism, gay rights, or any of the other things which are used to make the case that Israel is the only democracy in the ME.

The endgame for some close to Bibi is a theocracy in which the Third Temple is restored. The American evangelical right supports them in this because of the belief that when the Third Temple is restored, the end of the world is close at hand.

If Bibi and his fellow travellers clung to power, once they had pushed the people of Gaza into Egypt, they would move on to another power grab which will weaken the dream of a liberal Israel, which many Jewish people in Israel and the diaspora will not like - just as Bibi was attempting when things deteriorated so badly.

The attack of October 7 was horrific and Hamas are a murderous racket, but there's so much opportunism in politics. Bibi and his mates aren't just motivated by security or even revenge. You've got a load of oil and gas waiting to be exploited in Gaza, the dream of a Greater Israel free of Palestinians, End Times philosophies and an authoritarian government agenda all in the mix here.

Our government - in wanting to demonise protest and protect the trade deal with Israel - is making it worse with their Disney interpretation of a complex situation. My heart goes out to both sides, because the leadership is poor all around.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

After 846 pages - wow - I feel like I'm gatecrashing this thread chipping in at this stage, but the post above is an absolutely key point, apologies if the points I make have been made before.

This conflict is being packaged to us as a conflict between a Western democracy and Islamist nutters. But the truth is the forces leading Netanyahu are largely far right or fundamentalist, they are not interested in liberalism, gay rights, or any of the other things which are used to make the case that Israel is the only democracy in the ME.

The endgame for some close to Bibi is a theocracy in which the Third Temple is restored. The American evangelical right supports them in this because of the belief that when the Third Temple is restored, the end of the world is close at hand.

If Bibi and his fellow travellers clung to power, once they had pushed the people of Gaza into Egypt, they would move on to another power grab which will weaken the dream of a liberal Israel, which many Jewish people in Israel and the diaspora will not like - just as Bibi was attempting when things deteriorated so badly.

The attack of October 7 was horrific and Hamas are a murderous racket, but there's so much opportunism in politics. Bibi and his mates aren't just motivated by security or even revenge. You've got a load of oil and gas waiting to be exploited in Gaza, the dream of a Greater Israel free of Palestinians, End Times philosophies and an authoritarian government agenda all in the mix here.

Our government - in wanting to demonise protest and protect the trade deal with Israel - is making it worse with their Disney interpretation of a complex situation. My heart goes out to both sides, because the leadership is poor all around.

Chip in anytime if that’s your normal standard.
One word of advice though. Some people get more angry about you calling him Bibi than any other content you may contend.

 

[meeesh]

Reading the comments and posts on this thread........no wonder it's been brought to the streets of the UK, wow, just wow, opinions that are not needed in this country, it's as simple as that isn't it?

 

[hilts]

Needs someone in the middle to do a countdown.
3-2-1 Go.

Glock paper missiles

Best out of 3