Middle East Conflict

[Ducado]

I think everyone agrees with this analogy but the reality is very different because what do you want to happen to enact it recognising the options on the table? Let's say Israel stops right now but Hamas doesn't and carries on the war it started, what's next then?

What's next for the hostages? Does Israel negotiate their return but at what cost? The release of hundreds of Hamas prisoners? What a cracking deal!

After what happened on the 7th October would you not say that negotiating with Hamas is almost an insult to Israeli's? That's what the US did straight after 9/11, they sat down with Bin Laden and negotiated with Al'Qaeda..... Or maybe not.

You really can't compare the two situations all though people love to, Hams is a territorial based Resistance Movement (not matter how abohrant some of their ideas are) Al Qaeda was or is a loose collection of misfits who just wanted to destroy the west their first goal was to remove American Soldiers from Saudi that achieved they just embarked on general nihilism

You can't make peace if you don't talk to your enemies and sometimes we will have a visceral hatred of them, the same to people who think the Palestinians can just fight their way to freedom they can't not can Israel suppress the quest for nationhood

 

[Chippy_boy]

Ok, assuming you are saying you will kill the innocent baby to save your family. Let's say your family is 4 members and there are ten terrorists with babies strapped to their chests. Do you now kill the 10 terrorists and 10 innocent babies to 'defend' your family or let your 4 strong family be killed to save the 10 innocent babies?
Now I don't particularly want you to answer what is an hypothetical moral problem but it is roughly where the Israelis are. Do they leave Hamas in place in the certain knowledge that they will kill Israeli innocents again or do they try and kill Hamas with the certain knowledge that Palestinian innocents are killed? It's not a simple game of maths where we pick the option where the fewest innocents die, if it's your innocents who die then that greatly changes things.

Again, analogies always break down in final analysis. But there's a bigger question: Realistically, can Israel eliminate future terrorist attacks by militarily wiping out Hamas? The answer to that is rather obviously a big fat no. And in that context none of their current actions are sensible, let alone justified. The only justification could be to secure the release of the hostages and again, a better way to do that is to stop bombing, not to continue bombing.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think it would be apt to quote the specific laws you are referring to rather than some blaise reference to common law on such a serious subject. Btw I'm fully supportive of any transgressions you care to mention to be dealt with in the strongest possible manner.

By all means I suggest you can search for the relevant laws if you wish. It's not hard to do so, if you feel that is important. Personally I am comfortable with my opinions on the matter and don't feel the need to waste my time trawling the web. But as I say, knock yourself out.

Let Me Google That

For all those people that find it more convenient to bother you with their question than to google it for themselves.

letmegooglethat.com

Let Me Google That

For all those people that find it more convenient to bother you with their question than to google it for themselves.

letmegooglethat.com

 

[Mon Autre]

Surely a cease fire would help that no ?

Yes definitely. Although from what I understand it's been rebranded as a "strategic pause" for face saving purposes.

 

[Ducado]

Hamas are relying on people like you who are decent and have empathy because it's obvious they'd kill many of their own people without blinking, as for the Israelis they don't appear to give a fuck either way mate.

Hamas really don't care in fact the Israeli response is exactly what they wanted and needed here's why

It ties up Israeli forces and equipment and costs a fortune it also damages national moral

The innocents are presented as martyrs to the cause

It proves their point about The West and Israel, the narrative has been set that Muslim lives don't matter and believe me that is the message going out right across the Muslim world

It puts back normalisation of international relationships, if the slaughter goes on we could be back to Israel having no diplomatic relationships save from Egypt (another country that depends on the US for survival) you would be a brave leader in the Islamic world who now took Israel's side.

It's a foolhardy venture with no end plan just more war, and a massive counter insurgency, and I can pretty much guarantee that no country will assist with boots on the ground until a comprehensive settlement has been implemented, so basically they are going to have to occupy all of the Gaza strip and look after the welfare of two million people

 

[halfcenturyup]

I think that their objective is to eliminate Hammas , however, I'm more concerned about the fastest solution to save innocent lives
And if others want the same, I'd expect that they would also call for a cease fire , rather than argue about what hammas want and why

A ceasefire is clearly needed, but we need to be realistic. Hamas won't give up their only bargaining chip for a ceasefire. At least, I wouldn't in their position. Once they have done that, what is to stop Israel resuming hostilities again if their objective is, as you say, to eliminate Hamas?

Israel have got themselves into a hopeless position, imho, if their objective really is to eliminate Hamas. Firstly, because they can't. Secondly, because even if they did, something worse would pop up. But they can't stop without a win. I just don't see what that could be. Which is why I think the objective must be something else.

 

[blueinsa]

It’s not as bad at all. One is a terrorist organisation and the other is a sovereign state who should be above all this.

It’s fucking shameful.

Ok.

I don’t agree.

 

[inbetween]

All good points mate and I don't pretend for one moment to have all the answers.

All I can say is that you cannot reach an agreement without even trying to reach one. And also I think it is naïve to imagine that there can be a military solution that prevents future attacks upon Israel. I think the chances of Israel suffering future atrocities has increased over the past month, not decreased.

So in their shoes, I would be trying to secure the release of hostages by stopping their attacks and trying to talk to Hamas. Yes, that's a difficult pill for an injured party to swallow. But it's the least worst option IMO.

Israel has just faced its 9/11 and at the same time it was caught with its pants down. There is literally zero chance that they'll talk to Hamas. The only reason for Hamas to come to the table anyway is because Hamas eventually will want a ceasefire so that it can rearm, that is never going to be acceptable to Israel.

Israel would perhaps talk to the Palestinians in order to assist with their safety and wellbeing but certainly not via Hamas whose only goal with regard to the Palestinian population is to use them as a shield. Unfortunately the Palestinians have no voice whatsoever because of Hamas, what if all they want actually is to be safe?

Hamas needs to be removed, it's the only real option for the Palestinians and it's the only option for Israel. Until this is done then I still think that the Palestinian population should be moved to safety away from danger out of Gaza where they can be given aid. We in the west must then hold Israel to account on what happens next.

Anyone who disagrees with the above is just trying to self-justify a bizarre reality which will never happen which is a war where Hamas can do whatever it likes whilst Israel can't.

 

[trueblue1972]

A ceasefire is clearly needed, but we need to be realistic. Hamas won't give up their only bargaining chip for a ceasefire. At least, I wouldn't in their position. Once they have done that, what is to stop Israel resuming hostilities again if their objective is, as you say, to eliminate Hamas?

Israel have got themselves into a hopeless position, imho, if their objective really is to eliminate Hamas. Firstly, because they can't. Secondly, because even if they did, something worse would pop up. But they can't stop without a win. I just don't see what that could be. Which is why I think the objective must be something else.

I 100 % expect that Israel will resume . I'd hope that resumption would be under circumstances where fewer civilians were hurt/killed
In as much as being realistic about hammas not giving up their bargening chip , Israel will feel they can't leave 10's of thousands of terrorists. I believe they can defeat Hammas as it stands now , and quite rightly, you state there will be an uprising of another faction, this is nothing new to Israel its been the case since its independence.
However, I dream that during that time , bibi is gone a more moderate government is installed for both Israel and Palestine settlements are removed and everyone lives happily ever after , history however suggests that's just a dream. Attacks on Israel led to a right-wing government , hopefully, enough Israelis have now realised that oppression will not solve anything I do belive that many understand that after recent events

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Bombing your neighbours then taking over their land and settling it, has happened before on the European Continent. About 80yrs ago.

 

[inbetween]

You really can't compare the two situations all though people love to, Hams is a territorial based Resistance Movement (not matter how abohrant some of their ideas are) Al Qaeda was or is a loose collection of misfits who just wanted to destroy the west their first goal was to remove American Soldiers from Saudi that achieved they just embarked on general nihilism

You can't make peace if you don't talk to your enemies and sometimes we will have a visceral hatred of them, the same to people who think the Palestinians can just fight their way to freedom they can't not can Israel suppress the quest for nationhood

How do you talk to Hamas?

Hamas wants to obliterate Israel, they believe it should not exist in any shape or form. They will fire rockets and they will look to kill Israeli's until either they're dead themselves or Israel is gone.

Why has Hamas built tunnels and clearly spent years fortifying its military infrastructure? Did they do all of that because they want to chat about a two-state solution with Israel around a table?

Hamas will continue to fight regardless and they will only stop and call for a ceasefire when it's time to reload because they have ran out of bullets. Once they have rearmed, the cycle will start all over again.

 

[kaz7]

Surely the intention of the Israelis is to kill Hamas? Now Hamas are basically strapping babies to their fronts and daring the Israelis to shoot knowing the outrage this would cause if they do shoot. What would you do if someone was coming to kill your family with a baby strapped to them? Let them kill your family or shoot knowing for certain that the innocent baby will die? So come on, what would you do? Kill a baby or let your family be killed?

What do you mean by strapping babies to their fronts ? Very inflamatory

 

[halfcenturyup]

I 100 % expect that Israel will resume . I'd hope that resumption would be under circumstances where fewer civilians were hurt/killed
In as much as being realistic about hammas not giving up their bargening chip , Israel will feel they can't leave 10's of thousands of terrorists. I believe they can defeat Hammas as it stands now , and quite rightly, you state there will be an uprising of another faction, this is nothing new to Israel its been the case since its independence.
However, I dream that during that time , bibi is gone a more moderate government is installed for both Israel and Palestine settlements are removed and everyone lives happily ever after , history however suggests that's just a dream. Attacks on Israel led to a right-wing government , hopefully, enough Israelis have now realised that oppression will not solve anything I do belive that many understand that after recent events

I admire your optimism, but I don't share it. I am not optimistic at all about the IDF behaving differently, I am not optimistic about Israeli politics even if Netanhayu goes to jail, and I am not at all optimistic that Hamas can be eliminated.

The only thing that can solve this whole issue is the US showing real leadership and that isn't happening before the election, if ever.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Israel has just faced its 9/11 and at the same time it was caught with its pants down. There is literally zero chance that they'll talk to Hamas. The only reason for Hamas to come to the table anyway is because Hamas eventually will want a ceasefire so that it can rearm, that is never going to be acceptable to Israel.

Israel would perhaps talk to the Palestinians in order to assist with their safety and wellbeing but certainly not via Hamas whose only goal with regard to the Palestinian population is to use them as a shield. Unfortunately the Palestinians have no voice whatsoever because of Hamas, what if all they want actually is to be safe?

Hamas needs to be removed, it's the only real option for the Palestinians and it's the only option for Israel. Until this is done then I still think that the Palestinian population should be moved to safety away from danger out of Gaza where they can be given aid. We in the west must then hold Israel to account on what happens next.

Anyone who disagrees with the above is just trying to self-justify a bizarre reality which will never happen which is a war where Hamas can do whatever it likes whilst Israel can't.

The reality though mate is that Hamas can never "be removed". There will always be a Hamas or a Real Hamas or a Provisional Hamas or whatever, so long as a significant proportion of Palestinians are not happy with their lot. Which means forever, if Israel carry on as they are.

Maybe they just have to accept being permanently at war, forever.

 

[trueblue1972]

I admire your optimism, but I don't share it. I am not optimistic at all about the IDF behaving differently, I am not optimistic about Israeli politics even if Netanhayu goes to jail, and I am not at all optimistic that Hamas can be eliminated.

The only thing that can solve this whole issue is the US showing real leadership and that isn't happening before the election, if ever.

I'm not that optimistic about many of the points to be fair. It's a situation that been close to me for all my life. Like I said, I dream .

 

[trueblue1972]

The reality though mate is that Hamas can never "be removed". There will always be a Hamas or a Real Hamas or a Provisional Hamas or whatever, so long as a significant proportion of Palestinians are not happy with their lot. Which means forever, if Israel carry on as they are.

Maybe they just have to accept being permanently at war, forever.

Would you accept that ?

 

[halfcenturyup]

I'm not that optimistic about many of the points to be fair. It's a situation that been close to me for all my life. Like I said, I dream .

...... And you're not the only one. I hope one day they'll join us, and the world can live as one.

To paraphrase a dirty dipper.

 

[Vic]

I’m on the side of a sovereign state defending itself and its citizens from a terrorist organisation and its attack that killed 1400.

Normally, 99% would be in favour and it would be tomorrows chip paper but Israel are involved and Palestinians are involved and for many it becomes an ideological battle that has to be won.

Peace is what has to happen. A viable 2 state solution is what has to happen and both Hamas and the Netanyahu right wing governments need to cease to exist and more moderate leaderships be in place to make the above a realistic goal.

Unfortunately, we are not there right now, attack was carried out by Hamas and Israel has declared war and won’t stop until they are told to stop by the USA.

I’ve stated that a release of the hostages would imo bring enough pressure from allies and the USA to bring about a ceasefire from Israel and one hopefully Hamas would stick to and from there, talks and a resolution but it’s years away if at all possible and so many changes are needed for it to have a realistic chance of working.

Hopefully it all stops asap and innocent civilians all over the region can be saved but I’m not confident right now.

First sentence. Does it matter that by terrorism was partly how they got to be a sovereign state?

 

[halfcenturyup]

How do you talk to Hamas?

Hamas wants to obliterate Israel, they believe it should not exist in any shape or form. They will fire rockets and they will look to kill Israeli's until either they're dead themselves or Israel is gone.

Why has Hamas built tunnels and clearly spent years fortifying its military infrastructure? Did they do all of that because they want to chat about a two-state solution with Israel around a table?

Hamas will continue to fight regardless and they will only stop and call for a ceasefire when it's time to reload because they have ran out of bullets. Once they have rearmed, the cycle will start all over again.

1 I would imagine the Israelis are talking to Hamas right now, indirectly through intermediaries.

2 Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel no matter how many times you say it.

3 Because they knew Israel would react to provocation at some point with bat-shit crazy.

4 Hamas will stop when their funding and weapons dry up. That is where attention should go. Not killing 10,000 civilians unnecessarily.

 

[Roachy]

By all means I suggest you can search for the relevant laws if you wish. It's not hard to do so, if you feel that is important. Personally I am comfortable with my opinions on the matter and don't feel the need to waste my time trawling the web. But as I say, knock yourself out.

You're the one who mentioned the law, not me. Just admit you don't know and decided to stick it in to fluff up your opinion. As for the common law bit, crikey.