Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[TinFoilHat]

Cue the usual IDF tropes in response...

 

[Dax777]

I would argue for as long as Netanyahu and politicians who think like him remain in power there is equally nope of any political or economic solution here. They have no interest in peace and one could make the point that Hamas' existence is good for their political careers.

Netanyahu will likely be kicked out after the war. So it's probably a good thing that he clears out the other obstacles to progress I suppose.

 

[Pelegrinni]

This is another of those arguments that don't make a lot of sense. These are protests presumably against the effects of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory and the perceived disproportionate response to the terrorist attack. Why would they address anything else?

Why wouldn't the "protests" in support of Israel immediately after the attack, for example, also have denounced the occupation of Gaza, for example, which, to some extent, in one way or another, have led to it?

Nonsense.

There is so much to debate on this issue without going down these rabbit holes.

Israel left Gaza since 2005.
What occupation are you talking about?

 

[Username Required]

Further to the pro-Palestinian demonstration in Istanbul over the weekend, which was posted about on this thread -

AKP holds large pro-Palestinian rally in Istanbul - Türkiye News

Hundreds of thousands of people gathered at a pro-Palestinian rally arranged by the ruling Justice and Development Party's (AKP) Istanbul organization on Oct. 28.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

I read some of Erdogan's remarks on Saturday but I missed this:

"What was Gaza and Palestine in 1947, what is it today? Israel, how did you get here? How did you get in? You are an invader..."

Türkiye to introduce Israel to world as war criminal: Turkish President Erdogan

Those shedding crocodile tears for civilians killed in Ukraine-Russia war silently watching killing of children in Gaza, says Turkish president - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

He [Erdogan] said Israel is an “occupier,” adding: “West owes you, but Türkiye does not owe you.”

 

[halfcenturyup]

Israel left Gaza since 2005.
What occupation are you talking about?

This again? It is occupied territory under international law, for a host of reasons. Take it up with the lawyers, not with me.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Cue the usual IDF tropes in response...

Can't be real, surely? That isn't anything you put in a memo.

 

[Vialli98]

Netanyahu will likely be kicked out after the war. So it's probably a good thing that he clears out the other obstacles to progress I suppose.

I hope so, he is a war criminal who he tried before the Hague.

The problem with your second sentence is that he is attempting to do that whilst murdering 7000 people, likely thousands more stuck under the rubble, so I'm having a hard time classifying that as a good thing.

 

[Pelegrinni]

This is just IDF propaganda, I'm sorry. It's IDF talking points almost word for word.

You are asking civilians, many of them physically and literally incapable of fleeing to flee and then you drop thousands of bombs of them and your response to their horrific deaths is 'oh well we told them to move'. You should maybe take a breather and re-examine what you're defending here.

And then those that can flee to the south are met with more indiscriminate bombings in the south, so forgive me if I doubt that the IDF have noble intentions.

I hope you never find yourself in a war zone.
Maybe then, you will appreciate what it means.
Millions of Ukrainians fled their country because of war. Same with Syria, Georgia, Iraq etc.

The cynic in me thinks some people just want to see dead Palestinians just so they could point the finger at Israel.

Thank goodness almost a million have moved south of Gaza. The few that are left in the north (apart from the old and infirm) would be considered as part of the Hamas military machine.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Can't be real, surely? That isn't anything you put in a memo.

המסמך המלא של משרד המודיעין: כיבוש עזה וטרנספר כולל לתושביו - שיחה מקומית

מסמך מטעם משרד המודיעין, שתוכנו המלא מתפרסם כאן לראשונה, ממליץ להעביר באופן כפוי את אוכלוסיית הרצועה לסיני לצמיתות

www.mekomit.co.il

The link does translate into English.

Like Ukraine/Russia it's good to be skeptical

 

[Pelegrinni]

YouTube again? Or Wikipedia this time?

Edit: :) Sorry, that probably sounded condescending. It wasn't supposed to be. I just thought it was a weird "threat".

Doesn't matter.
Why did they start the second intifada?

Then you have the offer made to Abbas which was even more generous.

Many countries were created in the 20th century some of which involved large population relocation. India and Pakistan being a prime example.
These countries have moved on except the Arabs of Palestine.
I wonder why.

 

[halfcenturyup]

What would you propose should be done. I for one think wiping out Hamas is one of the keys to success.

I don't know why you state it won't work. Attacking terror groups directly and decimating their power base tends to work.

And that and an economic and political solution to the plight of the Palestinians aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Frankly, so long as Hamas exists there will never be a political or economic solution at all.

The economic and political solution to the plight of Palestinians partly rests on the dismantling of Hama,'s death grip on Gaza.

I think the difference we have is that you think you can "wipe out" Hamas through a short-term use of military force, and I (and I suspect others) don't think you can.

Imo, the only way to defeat Hamas is to cut off the head through targeted, precision attacks against the leaders in Gaza when they pop up out of their holes, targeted assassinations of the leaders in Qatar and Iran using special forces (let's face it, the Israelis aren't shy of doing that) and then working on a diplomatic solution to the Israeli/ Palestinian problem and on the US/ Iran sabre-rattling using grown-up diplomacy. Time to forget about revolution, hostages and failed rescues. It's a slow strangling of Hamas, rather than a decapitation, that will work imho.

Of course, this could all be bollocks. I am perfectly able to accept that :)

 

[west didsblue]

Can't be real, surely? That isn't anything you put in a memo.

Probably one of a number of options under consideration. If it’s a real option, I can’t see how anyone other than fanatics can possibly support it. That really is the definition of ethnic cleansing.

 

[Pelegrinni]

I believe in rational discussion and being courteous, but you sir are clearly a piss-taking troll to come out with an insulting and patronising statement like that.

You are trying to justify slaughter and terror, and you are actually damaging support for your cause.

It's mainly people who don't live in Gaza that want prefers a military stalemate so that Hamas can regroup and go again in a few years.

I don't pretend to know much about the place. My position is based on logic and rationality.
Wanting the best for Palestinian kids is rational and logical - but dismissed as patronizing by you.
Why I would never know.

But the fact remains - if Hamas remains in charge of Gaza, we will be back again on this forum in a few years time debating the whole rights vs wrongs of the next conflict. Many more children on both sides will be killed and families destroyed. I don't want this cycle of violence to continue.

Following the blueprint of Aleppo, Mosul, Falujah, Grozny etc., only the destruction of Hamas would bring lasting peace to that land.
This is just my opinion.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Doesn't matter.
Why did they start the second intifada?

Then you have the offer made to Abbas which was even more generous.

Many countries were created in the 20th century some of which involved large population relocation. India and Pakistan being a prime example.
These countries have moved on except the Arabs of Palestine.
I wonder why.

I really don't care much about history. Learning from the history of the two sides is fine as an intellectual exercise, but what matters to people's lives is the here and now. And it isn't pretty.

 

[Vialli98]

I hope you never find yourself in a war zone.
Maybe then, you will appreciate what it means.
Millions of Ukrainians fled their country because of war. Same with Syria, Georgia, Iraq etc.

The cynic in me thinks some people just want to see dead Palestinians just so they could point the finger at Israel.

Thank goodness almost a million have moved south of Gaza. The few that are left in the north (apart from the old and infirm) would be considered as part of the Hamas military machine.

You call it war zone. I'd call it Israel indiscriminately bombing residential neighbourhoods, schools, hospitals murdering thousands and somehow justifying it with vague notions of collateral damage. So far over 3000 children have been callously murdered by Israel. I presume you consider them to be a part of the Hamas military machine?

And as has been pointed out, Israel are also dropping bombs in the south, so fleeing there is hardly the life saving suggestion you claim it to be.

Think about what you're saying thank goodness to. A million people have been driven out of their homes and their families who couldn't flee obliterated by Israeli bombs. As I said, maybe take a breather and think about what you're saying here.

 

[halfcenturyup]

המסמך המלא של משרד המודיעין: כיבוש עזה וטרנספר כולל לתושביו - שיחה מקומית

מסמך מטעם משרד המודיעין, שתוכנו המלא מתפרסם כאן לראשונה, ממליץ להעביר באופן כפוי את אוכלוסיית הרצועה לסיני לצמיתות

www.mekomit.co.il

The link does translate into English.

Like Ukraine/Russia it's good to be skeptical

Well, in the tradition of scepticism, I choose to believe it because I can only see that as being the Israeli objective, based on what they are doing. :)

Hope I am wrong.

 

[Pelegrinni]

This again? It is occupied territory under international law, for a host of reasons. Take it up with the lawyers, not with me.

This again? It is occupied territory under international law, for a host of reasons. Take it up with the lawyers, not with me.

Israel has done a very bad job at occupation if Hamas could bring in those thousands of rockets right under their noses.
What about Egypt which actually occupied Gaza until the six day war of 1967 and still shares a border with them today. Can we class them as occupiers as well?

 

[halfcenturyup]

Israel has done a very bad job at occupation if Hamas could bring in those thousands of rockets right under their noses.
What about Egypt which actually occupied Gaza until the six day war of 1967 and still shares a border with them today. Can we class them as occupiers as well?

Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Sorry.

 

[Pelegrinni]

You call it war zone. I'd call it Israel indiscriminately bombing residential neighbourhoods, schools, hospitals murdering thousands and somehow justifying it with vague notions of collateral damage. So far over 3000 children have been callously murdered by Israel. I presume you consider them to be a part of the Hamas military machine?

And as has been pointed out, Israel are also dropping bombs in the south, so fleeing there is hardly the life saving suggestion you claim it to be.

Think about what you're saying thank goodness to. A million people have been driven out of their homes and their families who couldn't flee obliterated by Israeli bombs. As I said, maybe take a breather and think about what you're saying here.

The numbers are provided by Hamas so it's not reliable.
Their families share a responsibility for the death of the children because of their refusal to move south.
People who have moved are not burying their young children. So it is safe there until the war is over.

The type of ordinance used by Israel to date is designed to minimise civilian casualties - the bombs detonate upwards instead of sideways. See the type used by Russia in Ukraine for comparison.

In wars, people unfortunately lose their homes and sometimes, their lives. It happened in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Chechnia, etc. If you want to blame anyone, you should blame the party that started the war. Not the one retaliating for the attrocities committed against their citizens.

 

[Ducado]

What would you propose should be done. I for one think wiping out Hamas is one of the keys to success.

I don't know why you state it won't work. Attacking terror groups directly and decimating their power base tends to work.

And that and an economic and political solution to the plight of the Palestinians aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Frankly, so long as Hamas exists there will never be a political or economic solution at all.

The economic and political solution to the plight of Palestinians partly rests on the dismantling of Hama,'s death grip on Gaza.

What about the death grip of the Israeli government? Who don’t want a separate state