Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Roachy said:
The assertion was that Israel possibly wanted to occupy Gaza regardless of the Oct 7th atrocity. This point of debate was then conflated by others, including yourself, with other matters. There was no proof provided that what was originally being stated was anything other than an assumption.
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Maybe see the map shown by the mass murderer only in September as proof? That’s before 7th October right?
 
arbabarshad said:
Maybe see the map shown by the mass murderer only in September as proof? That’s before 7th October right?
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Maybe you could have a look at the maps in UNRWA schools that eliminate Israel, and are taught to children, that has been ongoing for a long time. They even went to the trouble of hiding one from UN Seceratary General Ban Ki Moon when he visited.

Or does none of that count ?
 
bluethrunthru said:
we smash things up and just walk away - its up to the world to clean up after us

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Again they have been told this is not an option, plus without a peace agreement they would be stuck there, it’s a perfect trap for them I’m surprised they walked into it

It’s possible that the release of some hostages and a ceasefire might draw a curtain on this episode, because the options are not good for either side

By the way the 14 billion has not arrived from the US yet, make of that as you will
 
Ducado said:
What would your alternative be? It’s not a perfect system, many people take their freedom for granted until it’s not there, the very fact we can discuss contentious issues without censorship on this very forum proves that, in many countries it would lead to prison or worse

And you can protest against the government without being attacked by the state, the poor sods in Iran would love that freedom

Give me liberal democracy
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I'm not saying I have an alternative but I'm just cautious of judging alternative systems of governance against our own liberal democracy. The spread of western systems of governance goes hand in hand with colonialism and imperialism. As you say many countries have repressive governments. However if viewed post colonialy, I believe that the countries should (probably too late by now anyway) have the right to decide their own destiny without further western interference.
 
Ducado said:
I could pick you some raving lunatic on the Arab side who could say something equally as shocking, but were does it get us? People have strong opinions so what, they are allowed too have whatever opinions they want
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A lot of this is all about political identity and not the actual issue. The issue in Gaza itself isn't unique however it attracts far more attention than any other but only because the parties on either side are shouting loudly.

Xi Jinping arrived into liberal San Francisco last week and there wasn't a single protest or voice against him despite the fact that China is involved in its own genocide of the Muslim Uyghurs, or what about the aggression in the South China Sea and Taiwan? Where is the anger in the Arab world over genocide of the Uyghurs? Where is the condemnation and lengthy speeches in the UN?

The reason why you won't see any of this is because the Palestine protests are mostly led by the hard left and the socialist/communists aren't going to criticise their own. China also has a stranglehold on many aspects of the UN, particularly ex-western colonies which are slowly being biased towards Chinese influence.

It's no different to the climate protests which again are largely led by the left and not a single one of them mentions China in their protests who as a matter of complete fact contributes more to the problem than anyone else. At the end of the day it's all a complete hypocrisy which hides the true intention that is to further a larger scale political aim.
 
M16 citeh said:
I'm not saying I have an alternative but I'm just cautious of judging alternative systems of governance against our own liberal democracy. The spread of western systems of governance goes hand in hand with colonialism and imperialism. As you say many countries have repressive governments. However if viewed post colonialy, I believe that the countries should (probably too late by now anyway) have the right to decide their own destiny without further western interference.
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So basically you are saying that certain populations shouldn’t have a democratic say in how they are run? I can not see any country where a liberal democratic model would not work

Of course you can say the gulf countries are stable and they are essentially monarchy’s but they also have lots of money to lavish on there populations, which is unusual

Freedom of expression is an essential human right and it can only happen in a liberal democracy, although with the amount of people getting offended nowadays I think people fail to realise that everyone has the right to an opinion no matter how abhorrent we find it (subject to legal constraints of course)
 
inbetween said:
A lot of this is all about political identity and not the actual issue. The issue in Gaza itself isn't unique however it attracts far more attention than any other but only because the parties on either side are shouting loudly.

Xi Jinping arrived into liberal San Francisco last week and there wasn't a single protest or voice against him despite the fact that China is involved in its own genocide of the Muslim Uyghurs, or what about the aggression in the South China Sea and Taiwan? Where is the anger in the Arab world over genocide of the Uyghurs? Where is the condemnation and lengthy speeches in the UN?

The reason why you won't see any of this is because the Palestine protests are mostly led by the hard left and the socialist/communists aren't going to criticise their own.

It's no different to the climate protests which again are largely led by the left and not a single one of them mentions China in their protests who as a matter of complete fact contribute more to the problem than anyone else. At the end of the day it's all a complete hypocrisy which hides the true intention that is to further a larger scale political aim.
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I disagree, the nub of the matter is, Israel is classed as a western country, and as such a higher bar is set than say for China, where rightly or wrongly we kind of expect it

It’s easy to play the what about game, it does not mean the comparisons are not valid but you can point to lots of different conflicts the world over and they fail to energise people
 
M16 citeh said:
I'm not saying I have an alternative but I'm just cautious of judging alternative systems of governance against our own liberal democracy. The spread of western systems of governance goes hand in hand with colonialism and imperialism. As you say many countries have repressive governments. However if viewed post colonialy, I believe that the countries should (probably too late by now anyway) have the right to decide their own destiny without further western interference.
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The world, especially the developing world is waking up to the neo colonialism of the West and is organising accordingly. It is trying to move away from the Western trade and financial systems by constructing trade blocks and attempting to trade in alternative currencies to the dollar.
There is a growing awareness not only of Western financial exploitation but also political interference in their countries.
This is playing right into the hands of China and to some extent Russia.
The West really needs to sit back and think about the consequences of it's policies that may at one time have been effective and without major consequence but are now being shown to be counterproductive and detrimental to long term Western interests.
Whether the West can adapt it's behaviour to the modern age remains to be seen but one certain thing is that events are leaving the West behind and without a course correction the West will find itself increasingly isolated from the rest of the world.
 
Ducado said:
I disagree, the nub of the matter is, Israel is classed as a western country, and as such a higher bar is set than say for China, where rightly or wrongly we kind of expect it

It’s easy to play the what about game, it does not mean the comparisons are not valid but you can point to lots of different conflicts the world over and they fail to energise people
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As far as I'm concerned everything I've seen from Israel is entirely predictable and expected. I don't think that Israel can be held to a higher regard because at no point has it ever behaved that way. Israel has an advanced military complex which is allied to the west, it is also somewhat similar culturally but that's where the comparisons end.

Like China, Israel is a sovereign country which can do whatever it wants. Unless we apply the same fair logic to everyone in pressure organisations such as the UN then the argument is completely mute. You cannot reasonably argue morally that Israel should stop killing people whereas China should not.

On the what about game, many people are getting extremely upset about this issue and my worry is that we're seeing that upset spill onto the streets and there has been violence as a result. There has to be a cutoff eventually where we hopefully regain our sanity and certainly many of us realise that this isn't actually our fight. There is no reason to get upset with each other over it but I see that level of upset increasing.

There are exceptions and I think certain people want further violence, protest and chaos. That's however because the issue of Palestine is just another battleground in the continuation of their real aim which is to bring down our system of government and the ideology of the west.
 
Not really. I'm saying the global south shouldn't have a European model of freedom imposed on them by brutal wars and economic weapons such as western loans which is what we have seen repeatedly. There are different conceptions of freedom and rights in other places. I'm not saying I know better I'm saying other places should have a right to decide for themselves. Are we in the west really the champions on freedom some claim we are?
Ducado said:
So basically you are saying that certain populations shouldn’t have a democratic say in how they are run? I can not see any country where a liberal democratic model would not work

Of course you can say the gulf countries are stable and they are essentially monarchy’s but they also have lots of money to lavish on there populations, which is unusual

Freedom of expression is an essential human right and it can only happen in a liberal democracy, although with the amount of people getting offended nowadays I think people fail to realise that everyone has the right to an opinion no matter how abhorrent we find it (subject to legal constraints of coursthem
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Ducado said:
From an Israeli point of view, the region is plenty big enough to carve out a Palestinian state, even with the West Bank it’s a small country and if every Jewish person wanted to live there, there would not be enough space or resources

Just as a thought experiment, a new viable state could be made in say the Sini, it would take a lot of funding and nation building, but as a thought experiment it’s worth thinking about.
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You're thought experiment sounds very much like a fascist Israeli fantasy.
 
goalmole said:
The world, especially the developing world is waking up to the neo colonialism of the West and is organising accordingly. It is trying to move away from the Western trade and financial systems by constructing trade blocks and attempting to trade in alternative currencies to the dollar.
There is a growing awareness not only of Western financial exploitation but also political interference in their countries.
This is playing right into the hands of China and to some extent Russia.
The West really needs to sit back and think about the consequences of it's policies that may at one time have been effective and without major consequence but are now being shown to be counterproductive and detrimental to long term Western interests.
Whether the West can adapt it's behaviour to the modern age remains to be seen but one certain thing is that events are leaving the West behind and without a course correction the West will find itself increasingly isolated from the rest of the world.
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Very true. If only third world countries didn't have to rely on a superpower for loans. Imagine if they had their own central bank's like Chavez or gadaffi tried to implement before western interference ended the projects.
 
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