Middle East Conflict

[Vic]

Not saying this about Eds in particular but some viewpoints are not worth trying to understand.

Gosh no.

They may be the Israeli viewpoints that "friends of Israel" need to be challenged on. When asked "do you support the right of Israel to exist?" I now don't answer unless they tell me where Israel's boundaries are, or should be.

It's the same with "Zionism". Does that mean a safe "homeland" for Jews rather than staying how they started (a wandering Aramean was my father) or ended up (a diaspora, often suffer persecution) - which prompted plenty of anti-Zionism from Jews who either saw the benefit of being Jewish anywhere or foresaw that expelling the Arabs from Palestine would be problematic if not actually immoral. Or (more modern) does Zionism mean the latter expulsion could be effective genocide on boundaries of "Eretz Israel" way beyond what the rest of the world intended in 1948?

What we have now is the ascendancy of those who assassinated an Israeli PM for seeking a peaceful solution.

 

[Eds]

I am not really sure about your point. Israel's stated aim is to destroy Hamas you comment on Hezbollah and Houthis. Are they in Khan Younis too?

Would you not want to see the end of terrorist organisations? Hamas and others want the destruction of Israel and all Jews in the world. Do you support that?

 

[Eds]

Shabbat shalom.

I decided not to include a condemnation of terrorism against Israel just for the sake of balance. That just leads back to the history of Zionist terrorism to achieve the state of Israel.

I was trying to tease out your own view on the annexation of the West Bank. You say the ICJ ruling has no legal effect. Does that mean you think Israel should Annexe the Palestinian territories - or is it already Israel? What are the borders of Eretz Israel?

Jews are indigenous to Judea & Samaria aren’t they?

 

[Eds]

Do you or do you not support the current far-right Israeli government?

Do you or do you not support the current, accelerating illegal annexation of land and displacement of (and in many cases, violence against) Palestinians in the West Bank?

No whataboutisms, no “why have you not said this”, or “actually, this is the issue” responses. Just answer the questions in good faith.

I take it from some of your other responses you are Jewish, like me (though, I am an atheist)—have you ever lived and/or worked in Israel, as I have?

I am trying to understand your view point and what may be informing it (or may have informed it in the past).

If you are asking whether I support their actions in Gaza, yes.
Is it illegal, is it an annexation. Can you annex your own land?
I have spent time in Israel over the past 45+ years and have many friends as well as family there. The vast majority of people living in Israel of all religions just want to live in peace and get on with a normal life. The same can’t be said for the whole region unfortunately.
And if people don’t like what I have said then do what I do and block me. Don’t try and bully me and use Israel bingo as firstly I probably won’t see it and secondly I don’t really care. Happy to discuss sensibly with people but not those who take their views from the likes of Al jazeera, the Hadids and Corbyn.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Would you not want to see the end of terrorist organisations? Hamas and others want the destruction of Israel and all Jews in the world. Do you support that?

Of course not but I agree with the ICJ Verdict now

 

[Craig]

If you are asking whether I support their actions in Gaza, yes.
Is it illegal, is it an annexation. Can you annex your own land?
I have spent time in Israel over the past 45+ years and have many friends as well as family there. The vast majority of people living in Israel of all religions just want to live in peace and get on with a normal life. The same can’t be said for the whole region unfortunately.
And if people don’t like what I have said then do what I do and block me. Don’t try and bully me and use Israel bingo as firstly I probably won’t see it and secondly I don’t really care. Happy to discuss sensibly with people but not those who take their views from the likes of Al jazeera, the Hadids and Corbyn.

How’s it their land? What a lovely person you’re thinking millions of people should be imprisoned and thousands of kids slaughtered is ok

 

[BayernMan]

“We started seeing a series of children, preteens mostly, shot in the head…The families told one of two stories: they were playing inside when they were shot by Israeli forces, or they were playing in the street when they were shot by Israeli forces”

 

[Craig]

“We started seeing a series of children, preteens mostly, shot in the head…The families told one of two stories: they were playing inside when they were shot by Israeli forces, or they were playing in the street when they were shot by Israeli forces”

Fucking horrendous

 

[SebastianBlue]

Jews are indigenous to Judea & Samaria aren’t they?

All Jews are not indigenous to Judea & Samaria. I am not, for one. And most of my family and many of my friends come from lineages that did not come from the region now called Israel or Palestine.

Are you arguing that a common religion (or a religious heritage) allows a group of people to make an absolute claim to land?

If you are asking whether I support their actions in Gaza, yes.
Is it illegal, is it an annexation. Can you annex your own land?
I have spent time in Israel over the past 45+ years and have many friends as well as family there. The vast majority of people living in Israel of all religions just want to live in peace and get on with a normal life. The same can’t be said for the whole region unfortunately.
And if people don’t like what I have said then do what I do and block me. Don’t try and bully me and use Israel bingo as firstly I probably won’t see it and secondly I don’t really care. Happy to discuss sensibly with people but not those who take their views from the likes of Al jazeera, the Hadids and Corbyn.

You didn’t actually answer either question I asked, so I assume you aren’t discussing in good faith.

Beyond that, having lived and worked in Israel, and having family and friends there, I reject much of what you are saying as not representative at all of the current social or political climate. I am not sure if it ever actually represented Israel.

You seem to live in a past that arguably never existed and refuse to answer simple questions, so you are probably right that we should block each other.

 

[SebastianBlue]

“We started seeing a series of children, preteens mostly, shot in the head…The families told one of two stories: they were playing inside when they were shot by Israeli forces, or they were playing in the street when they were shot by Israeli forces”

There are many, many verified accounts of this from many different reputable sources, including a family friend who is a medic working in Rafah right now.

Yes, what Hamas did to Israelis was horrific—I don’t think any right minded person would argue otherwise.

But what is being done now to Palestinians, supposedly in retribution for the 7th October attacks, is worse in my opinion, because it is lowering Israel to the level of a terrorist organisation, undertaking the genocidal activities that Hamas could only dream of achieving. It should be against the conscience and nature of all Jewish people to condone and support this, after all that we have been through.

I have said this many times but I will say it again:

If Israel is better than Hamas, more moral, more righteous, then it must act better, more moral, more righteous.

You cannot claim to be in the right compared to your enemy and then act in the same way as your enemy, only at a much larger and much more destructive scale.

That is the disingenuous, hypocritical, immoral behaviour of detestable people. And, unfortunately, the Israeli government is filled with just those sorts of people right now, none more so than Netanyahu, Gallant, Ben-Gvir, and Smotrich.

Israel has become the very thing it was founded to avoid. And, really, if you study the genesis of the idea of modern day Israel, it was always moving toward this (as it started in this way).

Still, in my youth, living in Tel Aviv, I naively thought things could be changed and peace could be achieved. And then Netanyahu and Likud became influential, helped incite Rabin’s assassination, and I began to lose hope the far-right in Israel could be isolated and kept at the fringe. I still tried to do my part by working in Gaza and advocating for a two-state solution as I grew older, but I think deep-down I knew it was a losing battle.

And now it seems the far-right is Israel, for all intents and purposes.