Middle East Conflict

[Gray]

Protesters round the country should be grateful they live in these islands.

 

[lust overlord]

Apparently there is a massive concern in Arab capitals that the real aim is to push the population out, and annex the land and just brazen the outrage out

I doubt in the cold light of day they would get away with it, but it’s a major concern, personally I think it would be a disastrous move for the world in general

I can't see stealing the land after virtually razing it to the ground being a motivation.
That's how Israels enemies may well paint any occupation by Israel,( for security for instance),as proof of annexation.
The scale of this whole Israeli response seems so ill advised.

 

[The Stockport Iniesta]

Things seem to be hotting up in the north (where most of the people I know live) it’s up the Americans to cool this down now, it could spiral out of control, for one the rhetoric needs to be turned down a few notches, cooler heads need to prevail or this going to turn into fire that will burn everything

I'm not sure how America can cool things down? Diplomatically Iran won't take any notice, and if Hezbollah kick off, the US hitting targets in the Lebanon will only fan the flames in the region.

 

[Ducado]

You know for what is such an emotive subject to discuss it’s been going so well brilliant posts from all perspectives, the very essence of good debate, where we can find some commonality, it’s a shame that people want to ruin it with silly name calling

Can we never forget that both sides are suffering, grief loss and anger, we don’t need to add to it here do we?

 

[bluethrunthru]

Its going to be a bloodbath - I can't watch any more news

 

[Vic]

One more thing about them. Their UK leader is on record as saying Holocaust victims deserved it because if they didn’t deserve it God would have saved them. No doubt they think the same about last Saturday’s terrorist attack.

That's actually quite a theme in the Torah, and the prophets. Wandering in the desert for 40 years, and the Babylonian Exile were because of not trusting or of disobeying G-d. Presumably the Diaspora was God's will too (the argument that Judaism doesn't need a land was common enough) * but I'd not heard the modern application to the Holocaust. Why it would lead to support for Palestinians is worth asking.

* It's part of the wide definition of antisemitism (the IHRA "examples") to say it's antisemitic to question the loyalty of Jews to the country they live in. "Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."

The problematic "example" at the moment would be "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel" when collective punishment of Palestinians for the actions of Hamas seems OK.

 

[i kne albert davy]

Its going to be a bloodbath - I can't watch any more news

Unfortunately war tends to be like that, has been for the last ten thousand years. We just get more inventive at killing each other.

 

[Vic]

I absolutely agree with you about Netanyahu. A horrible, grubby, power-mad chancer and some of his allies are even worse. I've made no secret of my hatred for him. He must be delighted about the current situation although hopefully he'll pay the price after. The problem is the Israeli electoral system of course. As long as he leads his party and can cobble together a coalition, he'll be there or thereabouts.

But the paragraph I've highlighted could equally apply to the Gaza side, and the realisation by the people of Gaza that Hamas' inhumane approach is only bringing them misery and death. Because without that, Netanyahu and his far-right allies are deprived of much of their raison d'etre.

If the people of Gaza had a choice in the matter that would be a start but, even if they elected really nice guys, would Israel take risks with security and open the gates of Gaza? (That does perhaps raise a query about why Israel wanted people so close to an enemy with rockets.)

 

[domalino]

They are meant to be

The big problem is that Israel had disproportionate response as their go to weapon, and to be fair it worked in some circumstances, but enemies lean and adapt

I honestly believe there is a much bigger game going on here, as Hamas knew what would happen, I think some in Israel are starting to worry there may be trap being set, I think the US suspects this as well

We’ve had reports out of the US that Hamas were basically shocked they managed to go on the rampage they did, they expected a very quick hit and run raid and instead got away with hours of carnage because of the lax Israeli response.

I think the number of hostages reflects that somewhat - no one would plan to take 150 hostages, it’s too many. 50 would be just as big an issue for Israel and far easier to house, feed, hide and move.

I’m a great believer of never attributing to malice what can be explained by stupidity - or oversight in this case - so I’m struggling to believe the trap theory, or the opposite theory that Bibi & co ignored the warnings from Egypt because they wanted something to happen to justify whatever comes next.

Most of the time these historic events are full of dumb luck and simple fuck ups, like Leopold Lojka turning down the wrong street in Sarajevo in 1914 and the otherwise completely botched assassination of Franz Ferdinand suddenly coming good.

9/11 was the same. They never thought they’d all get through and it was arrogance and childish inter-agency bickering and refusing to share intelligence between the FBI, NSA and CIA that let it happen.

 

[Ric]

You know for what is such an emotive subject to discuss it’s been going so well brilliant posts from all perspectives, the very essence of good debate, where we can find some commonality, it’s a shame that people want to ruin it with silly name calling

Can we never forget that both sides are suffering, grief loss and anger, we don’t need to add to it here do we?

Well said. Just tidied up the thread now, but some of the rhetoric needs to be toned down again. Calling people anti-semites, bigots, terrorist supporters etc isn’t on. Let’s keep it civil and respectful please.