Middle East Conflict

[manclad]

That's gotta be the booze talkin' .. but sometimes the booze is right every once in a while

In Vino Veritas !!!

 

[west didsblue]

Early 90's apparently. Veteran of 1948.
You don't object to what he says ... you don't like the tone.

Of course I object to what he says. Don’t make up shit.

 

[BlueMoonday]

 

[Postman Pep]

 

[goalmole]

Whoever he is he’s a fucking nutter. Not going to argue about that.

That is a prevailing attitude to the Palestinians.
It's been prevalent in the military and security services as long as I can remember going back to Sabra and Shatila

 

[bluemoon1981]

I don’t care for the comparison either, but that doesn’t change the fact you’re pretending Hamas are democratic representatives of Palestinians and they haven’t been for nearly 15 years.

Not at all. What I am saying is when they voted in Hamas they were well aware of Hamas' ideology and chose to ignore it. Hamas did not suddenly change its ideology. The same happens throughout history. You are not absolved of accountability when those extremes that you ignored come to fruition and that's the point I am making with respect to the original comparison of accountability of the Jewish people as a religion and Gazans.

 

[inchy14]

Early 90's apparently. Veteran of 1948.
You don't object to what he says ... you don't like the tone.

Which part of ‘disgraceful comments’ means he doesn’t object to what was said?

 

[domalino]

Not at all. What I am saying is when they voted in Hamas they were well aware of Hamas' ideology and chose to ignore it. Hamas did not suddenly change its ideology. The same happens throughout history. You are not absolved of accountability when those extremes that you ignored come to fruition and that's the point I am making with respect to the original comparison of accountability of the Jewish people as a religion and Gazans.

Israel were aware of Hamas ideology when they funded them 25 years ago to undermine the PLO. A former Israeli brigadier general who was in Gaza told the New York Times in detail years ago how they’d bring in millions in cash and hand it off to people in the mosques because they thought the islamists would be easier to deal with than Arafat’s secularists.

It doesn’t make Israel responsible for Hamas’ actions now and Palestinian civilians, most of whom were not even of voting age to vote in 2006 are not responsible for Hamas.

I know it’s easy for you to pretend the civilians dying in Gaza are accountable for Hamas but is complete shit.

And it’s bizarre that you can so clearly see that non-Israeli Jews who can’t vote are not responsible for Israel, but can’t see that another group (Gazans) with no democratic rights is also not responsible for the actions of the people they can’t control.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

This is not true.

They did elect Hamas in 2006 for a 4 year term. Since 2010 Hamas has been in power undemocratically.

Democracy isn’t a one time thing. Julius Caesar was democratically elected dictator for 6 months. As soon as he made himself dictator perpetuo he was no longer a democratically elected leader.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that Israel helped create Hamas.

Hamas was officially founded in 87 during the first Intifada, but its roots were planted much earlier by Sheikh Ahmed Yassine who was a member of the Muslim brotherhood. The brotherhood had been repressed in Gaza prior to 67 by Egypt. Once Israel invaded Gaza they didn’t just turn a blind eye to the Islamists, they actively encouraged them (especially the right wing elements) because they wanted to undermine the dominant political Palestinian party at the time; the PLO, at the heart of which was the secular Fatah part led by Yasser Arafat.

By empowering Sheikh Yassine the Israelis thought they could divide and rule the occupied Palestinians by playing off secular nationalists v religious islamists. So in 1978 when Yassine wanted to make his Islamic association official (which was the precursor to Hamas), the Israeli’s were more than happy to help. Yassine built institutions such as schools, clubs and mosques, with many of these funded by Israel.

Arafat went on record to state Hamas was a creature of Israel and that Rabin had confirmed this to him. But you don’t have to take Arafats word for it as this was later confirmed by top Israeli officials. General Yitzhak Segev told the New York Times that he helped finance the Islamic movement. Colonel David Hacham admitted the original sin was Israeli support for Yassine in the 70’s. Avner Cohen who was the Israeli official responsible for religious affairs in Gaza is quoted as saying “Hamas to my great regret is Israel’s creation”. He even wrote an official report for his superiors in the 80’s warning them not to play divide and conquer in the occupied territories, calling them “To break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face”.

The inconvenient truth for Israel is that Hamas is in part a creature of their own making.

 

[domalino]

Till Iran is wiped out nothing will change. They are the ones who are backing Hamas and Hezbollah

I think if Qatar can be won over to abandon support, if not ideologically than through capitalist or diplomatic means, it will greatly hamper what Iran can do.

Iran are already a pariah under some of the harshest embargoes in history. Qatar is the friendly western facing state that harbours Hamas’ leaders and acts as a go between.