Middle East Conflict

[Ducado]

Yes, Hamas is all wrong. Nothing about them is right. But most on the left will not be caught dead saying it. Which confirms this is not merely about right and wrong. It's partly about it. But not wholly.

I mean, how can anyone not see Hamas is just plain wrong for Palestinians? They shoot rockets from Cemeteries near a hospitals in Palestinian land. :(

This is a group with a 15% -25% failure rate on their rocket launches and still they take so little precaution.

If it was about right and wrong, it's clear as day this group is ALL Wrong.

Of course Hamas are “wrong” I could not agree more but they are but a symptom, and you are concentrating on getting rid of the symptom rather than the cause

The oppressive occupation of the West Bank and treating Gaza as an open air prison is equally wrong, should Palestinians be treated as 2nd class citizens, have their land taken, have detention without trial

 

[Dage]

It seems a bit far fetched to me that it wasn’t Israel. Hard to know with so much unverified reports but it isn’t the first time Israel have attacked Palestinians and denied it to only later be proven to have lied. Do we believe Hamas could flatten a hospital? Do we believe they’d do it against their own people (as evil as they are). And thinking Iran or another country could secretly bomb Gaza is ludicrous.

The Israelis are bombing the shit out of Gaza so more likely they unintentionally targeted the hospital and are now using propaganda for damage limitation. Or even worse targeted it in the belief Hamas soldiers were hiding out there (which could be true) with a callous disregard for civilian life. Again, not sure how true this is, but you do have reports that the Israelis warned people to evacuate the hospital before the attack happened.

I fear Isreal did it. The US know it but typically their own foreign policy dictates any course of action rather than a moral one. At the end of the day if the US were to side with Palestine on this then Iran could have justification to join the war against Israel with leas fear of retribution from the west but if that does happen hello world war 3 - hence the US siding with Israel on this regardless of who is responsible.

No hospital was flatten. Some cars were. And yes, a Palestine rocket can do this.

 

[domalino]

It does seem incredibly weird. All religions are right wing, that is what they are, ultra conservative. But at the risk of being called racist, the most far right religion by far is Islam. That the left have 'jumped into bed' with a far right organisation just beggars belief.

The thing is, liberal western democracy is the direct descendent of Christendom.

Our values are essentially christian values, even the most left wing liberal atheist inherits most of their world view from a culture that’s linked intrinsically to 2000 years of Christianity. All of our social reforms and progress over those millennia were made to either alter the church or defined themselves in opposition to it. Our legal and education systems are still the se ones laid out by the bible and the Catholic Church.

That’s why Islam seems so conservative to us and to a similar extent Orthodox Judaism, which is essentially Judaism that didn’t flex and accommodate existing in a world governed by Christianity.

As to why the far left support stupid things it’s the same as them supporting Russia. They spend their entire lives being contrarians against the west that they can’t see when something non western is also bad. Russia launches an imperialist conquest of Ukraine and Chomsky et al can’t comprehend that the US is doing the right thing, because for the last 50 years they’ve made their livings saying the Us is in the wrong (usually correctly)

 

[Dax777]

Being in the wrong in this conflict is not isolated to one side.
There really aren't any good guys,just a bunch of extremists,and power hungry twats fucking the civilians,stuck in the middle of it,over.

I don't disagree. The point I was making is that people on the left will have no qualms calling Israel or the IDF out as colonizers, oppressors evil etc. But are hesitant to do the same with Hamas even though those names are just as appropriate for them.

Often criticism of Hamas will be wrapped in the "both sides are bad" or "they are just responding to years of oppression" soft blanket statements that blue the distinction between Hamas and Palestinians.

My point is this, subconsciously for people on the left, everything seems to filters through the dichotomy of oppressor vs oppressed that I expressed earlier. Many have disagreed with me on this claim, but whenever you apply that lense, everything tends to make sense.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Again, to follow how evidence works, it's the preponderance of evidence that's convincing, not any one particular evidence.

But certainly the absence of evidence about something else entirely( the attacks 10 days ago for example) doesn't cast doubt.

It's like saying you don't trust the evidence the police have in catching one person who assaulted a woman because they lacked evidence about a robbery down the street. That's weird reasoning.


Again, just coz they didn't know one thing doesn't mean they can't know other things.

For good or bad, Israel had been more focused ( wrongly it now seems) on the West Bank and Hezbollah to the north. Since the threat from hamas had often come from them launching rockets which Israel mostly neutralized with the Iron Dome.

So it's not beyond reason that they were complacent. Noe is it now beyond reason that they have been gathering info on where these rockets often gets launched from.


None of this is beyond what one can reasonably expect to believe. But I guess you see it differently.

Ummm it's seems all a bit to convenient to me. The truth is you can't trust one sides story over the other. I asked someone on here earlier who had explained in detail how IJ had the capability to launch a missile with a war head big enough to do that damage. Hamas clearly do not. When I asked the poster if the IDF had a missile or bomb that could detonate and cause similar damage the poster refused to elaborate or discuss.

Interesting that the BBC said that when questioned about the type of damage caused, military experts didn't say that the IDF didn't have bombs that could cause that damage. They said the bombs they usually used didn't cause that type of damage. IE not definitive.

So i ask you this have Isreal ever been economic with the truth or just made stuff up in to cover a mistake they have made in the past. If you accept that they have, then you have to have doubt on the IDF claims that it was an IJ rocket.

I supose in conclusion I am just open minded about who caused this particular act.

 

[Dage]

What are you talking about? NO HOSPITAL WAS FLATTEN. Some cars were

 

[bugsyblue]

No hospital was flatten. Some cars were. And yes, a Palestine rocket can do this.

Come on. I should have said part of it was flattened but the damage was definitely more than a few cars. First reports widely reported a number of strikes, so if it wasn’t Palestinian rockets it must have been more than one? Or were those initial reports wrong? Genuine question. But as I was trying to say no one knows what is true or false at the moment.

I still personally think it’s more likely to be Israel.

 

[domalino]

saying you support a 2 state solution is easy until you actually realise that means bulldozing the 244+ Israeli settlements built on Palestinian land.

Because you can’t expect Palestinians to accept a 2 state solution where Israel takes even more of their land than they had 35 years ago.

That’s why Likud and Netenyahu built them, they know it makes a 2 state soliton impossible.

And everyone knows that, so actually saying you support a 2 state solution is meaningless at best, and at worst means you support the status quo.

 

[domalino]

I don't disagree. The point I was making is that people on the left will have no qualms calling Israel or the IDF out as colonizers, oppressors evil etc. But are hesitant to do the same with Hamas even though those names are just as appropriate for them.

Often criticism of Hamas will be wrapped in the "both sides are bad" or "they are just responding to years of oppression" soft blanket statements that blue the distinction between Hamas and Palestinians.

My point is this, subconsciously for people on the left, everything seems to filters through the dichotomy of oppressor vs oppressed that I expressed earlier. Many have disagreed with me on this claim, but whenever you apply that lense, everything tends to make sense.

Ironically werent you were one of those leftists who could not see past “west bad” over the Us involvement in Ukraine?

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

It seems a bit far fetched to me that it wasn’t Israel. Hard to know with so much unverified reports but it isn’t the first time Israel have attacked Palestinians and denied it to only later be proven to have lied. Do we believe Hamas could flatten a hospital? Do we believe they’d do it against their own people (as evil as they are). And thinking Iran or another country could secretly bomb Gaza is ludicrous.

The Israelis are bombing the shit out of Gaza so more likely they unintentionally targeted the hospital and are now using propaganda for damage limitation. Or even worse targeted it in the belief Hamas soldiers were hiding out there (which could be true) with a callous disregard for civilian life. Again, not sure how true this is, but you do have reports that the Israelis warned people to evacuate the hospital before the attack happened.

I fear Isreal did it. The US know it but typically their own foreign policy dictates any course of action rather than a moral one. At the end of the day if the US were to side with Palestine on this then Iran could have justification to join the war against Israel with leas fear of retribution from the west but if that does happen hello world war 3 - hence the US siding with Israel on this regardless of who is responsible.

The hospital wasn’t flattened. The images of the courtyard outside the hospital suggest it was rocket fire, as do the videos that show where the missiles were being fired from.

As you say we don’t 100% know, but from what I’ve seen it was a missile attack that went badly wrong. I haven’t really seen anything credible that shows Israel carried it out.