Middle East Conflict



lol! Seven months in we are still playing games. But it’s been clear for a while hostages are an afterthought or dare I say, an inconvenience….
 
inbetween said:
This contains incredible ignorance. That region definitely is not shaped by racial elements such as Arabs so no it is not an Arabic space. That region is completely shaped by religion and especially Islam which is why you perceive it as an Arabic space. That's because Israel is surrounded by self-proclaimed Islamic states.

The reason why Israel is home to many 'Europeans' and 'Americans' is because those people are Jewish. That European and American heritage comes because Jews had nowhere to live and have otherwise fleed wherever they lived before due to persecution. Jews in Europe didn't exactly have an easy ride either, I suggest reading about European history in the period between 1939 and 1945.

Without Israel there is no Jewish homeland and so if Israel does not exist then where do you want Jews to live? Do you think that Jews should seriously live as a minority in an Islamic state of Palestine which is what would exist without Israel? This is precisely why Israel was created and SHOULD exist.
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The original aim of Zionism was a homeland for the Jewish people. Having it in Palestine was only one option, maybe the wrong one (once the early Zionists realised that their slogan of "a people without land for a land without people" was a false idea) and just a project of colonisation. I suggest reading about early Zionist history.
 


This is so vile, because when he says ''ancient desires'' he is refering to the persecution of Jews in Europe, which was done by white European christians and nazis.

He is saying Hamas and Palestinians hate for Israel is born out of Western Christian hate for Jews which is completely divorced from reality. He is no different than Bibi Netanyahu during his speech.
 
inbetween said:
This contains incredible ignorance. That region definitely is not shaped by racial elements such as Arabs so no it is not an Arabic space. That region is completely shaped by religion and especially Islam which is why you perceive it as an Arabic space. That's because Israel is surrounded by self-proclaimed Islamic states.

The reason why Israel is home to many 'Europeans' and 'Americans' is because those people are Jewish. That European and American heritage comes because Jews had nowhere to live and have otherwise fleed wherever they lived before due to persecution. Jews in Europe didn't exactly have an easy ride either, I suggest reading about European history in the period between 1939 and 1945.

Without Israel there is no Jewish homeland and so if Israel does not exist then where do you want Jews to live? Do you think that Jews should seriously live as a minority in an Islamic state of Palestine which is what would exist without Israel? This is precisely why Israel was created and SHOULD exist.
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Firstly, an uncomfortable home truth for you to swallow; Palestine existed as a state before Israel. But let's not dwell on that for now. Let's instead flip your pathetic logic. Let's ask, should Palestinians live as a minority in an expanded Israeli state? Should they allow the IDF to occupy and colonise more of their land illegally and turn the other cheek. Should they accept more of their innocent women and children to be killed, in the ruse of "collateral damage"? Of course, these aren't questions the Palestinians will be asking if Netanyahu and the rest of his colonisers get their way, because if they do get their way, Palestine as a state won't exist at all. Netanyahu has unequivocally, unashamedly, rejected the proposal of a two-state solution, and the embryonic peace such a solution would foster. You ask, where do you want the Jews to live? I must have missed the statistic that states millions of Jews live prosperously in many countries in the world beside Israel.

In short, unplug your head from that mountain of sand.
 
Blue and true said:
Firstly, an uncomfortable home truth for you to swallow; Palestine existed as a state before Israel. But let's not dwell on that for now. Let's instead flip your pathetic logic. Let's ask, should Palestinians live as a minority in an expanded Israeli state? Should they allow the IDF to occupy and colonise more of their land illegally and turn the other cheek. Should they accept more of their innocent women and children to be killed, in the ruse of "collateral damage"? Of course, these aren't questions the Palestinians will be asking if Netanyahu and the rest of his colonisers get their way, because if they do get their way, Palestine as a state won't exist at all. Netanyahu has unequivocally, unashamedly, rejected the proposal of a two-state solution, and the embryonic peace such a solution would foster. You ask, where do you want the Jews to live? I must have missed the statistic that states millions of Jews live prosperously in many countries in the world beside Israel.

In short, unplug your head from that mountain of sand.
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I completely agree on your points which is why I support two states and not one. Mute points on who stood on that land before Israel though are utterly pointless given the religious nature of that region and how it has changed hands over many years.

My previous post was based upon the apparent reasoning that Israel is somehow not a proper state due to the people that it contains. The reason why Jewish people have been displaced historically and moved to places like Europe and the US is obvious. This does not mean that a Jewish American has no right to self-determination and to deny this right is actually anti-semitic.

The alternative is do you believe that a majority Islamic ruled Palestinian state should exist with a Jewish minority? Why? The two must coexist which is why I do criticise the Netanyahu government and I am not in favour of what they're doing in Gaza.
 
inbetween said:
I completely agree on your points which is why I support two states and not one. Mute points on who stood on that land before Israel though are utterly pointless given the religious nature of that region and how it has changed hands over many years.

My previous post was based upon the apparent reasoning that Israel is somehow not a proper state due to the people that it contains. The reason why Jewish people have been displaced historically and moved to places like Europe and the US is obvious. This does not mean that a Jewish American has no right to self-determination and to deny this right is actually anti-semitic.

The alternative is do you believe that a majority Islamic ruled Palestinian state should exist with a Jewish minority? Why? The two must coexist which is why I do criticise the Netanyahu government and I am not in favour of what they're doing in Gaza.
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To address your question, it's not really a case of should it exist, but rather can it exist? Interestingly, the answer is yes; because there are currently a minority of people living, harmoniously in Israel, who identify as Palestinian-Israel. In other words, Muslims coexisting peacefully with Hebrews. Israel has a right to self-determination, but then so too does Palestine. And when Israel have been reneging on the Oslo accords for years now, encroaching ever more on Palestinian settlements, the Palestinians right of self-determination is being suffocated.

It's also worth remembering Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and Israel are a sovereign nation recognised by the UN. Given the current climate, you'd be forgiven for mistaking this; Israel are now, for all intents and purposes, a terrorist state committing war crimes. But they're protected on high from western democracies that should see their intentions for what they are.

Yes, we are in agreement, a two-state solution is the only outcome that gives a viability of peace.
 
inbetween said:
....

My previous post was based upon the apparent reasoning that Israel is somehow not a proper state due to the people that it contains. The reason why Jewish people have been displaced historically and moved to places like Europe and the US is obvious. This does not mean that a Jewish American has no right to self-determination and to deny this right is actually anti-semitic.

...
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I don't really know what it means for a Jewish American to have self-determination. If this means they have a right to go and live in Israel where they've never lived, that's a right being denied to Palestinians who had lived there. If it means American Jews can go and live in illegal settlements in the West Bank, they don't have that right.

And I remind you that accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations, is antisemitic.
 
Vic said:
I don't really know what it means for a Jewish American to have self-determination. If this means they have a right to go and live in Israel where they've never lived, that's a right being denied to Palestinians who had lived there. If it means American Jews can go and live in illegal settlements in the West Bank, they don't have that right.

And I remind you that accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations, is antisemitic.
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Forget the settlements for a moment, would you have a problem with a Jewish American who decides to live in Israel full stop? The answer surely must be no? However, if Israel did not exist then this would be impossible so a Jewish state must exist and indeed also coexist.

This is the right to self-determination, the creation of Israel and ability to settle there fulfils that right for Jewish people of any creed. Denying this right outright is the aim of the anti-zionist movement and is regarded as anti-semitic (at least in western recognised definitions).

The illegal settlements are a matter of criticism towards the Israeli government and its policy for implementing how people come to fulfil their right. It should indeed not deny the rights of the Palestinian people, if it does then the fault of that lies with the Israeli government and not the people exercising their rights or the simple fact that the right exists.

As I said previously, there's a reason why Israel contains people of many different creeds and backgrounds, it's because a Jewish state did not exist until the last 100 years and now it does. Jewish people had otherwise chosen to settle in many places such as the US because they were safe there. Obviously many Jewish people have now chosen to settle in Israel however many choose to stay in countries as is their right as citizens of those countries. This is what self-determination is.

In terms of what we can recognise and what is morally right the Palestinians should have a right to coexist within a separate state alongside Israel however this has never been agreed. A Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa... And here lies the problem....
 
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inbetween said:
Forget the settlements for a moment, would you have a problem with a Jewish American who decides to live in Israel full stop? The answer surely must be no? However, if Israel did not exist then this would be impossible so a Jewish state must exist and indeed also coexist.

This is the right to self-determination, the creation of Israel and ability to settle there fulfils that right for Jewish people of any creed. Denying this right outright is the aim of the anti-zionist movement and is regarded as anti-semitic (at least in western recognised definitions).

The illegal settlements are a matter of criticism towards the Israeli government and its policy for implementing how people come to fulfil their right. It should indeed not deny the rights of the Palestinian people, if it does then the fault of that lies with the Israeli government and not the people exercising their rights or the simple fact that the right exists.

As I said previously, there's a reason why Israel contains people of many different creeds and backgrounds, it's because a Jewish state did not exist until the last 100 years and now it does. Jewish people had otherwise chosen to settle in many places such as the US because they were safe there. Obviously many Jewish people have now chosen to settle in Israel however many choose to stay in countries as is their right as citizens of those countries. This is what self-determination is.

In terms of what we can recognise and what is morally right the Palestinians should have a right to coexist within a separate state alongside Israel however this has never been agreed. A Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa... And here lies the problem....
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I can't be bothered picking all the holes in that. "Forget the settlements" - yes I have a problem if someone is going to Israel to support and vote for a government that supports the settlements. The creation of the state of Israel was against the self-determination of the people they displaced. And anti-Zionism was primarily (originally) a Jewish thing, so cannot be automatically antisemitic (and the IHRA definition and examples don't mention Zionism).

Jump to the last sentence that a Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa. The vice versa is happening before your eyes.
 
www.bbc.co.uk

The Other War

Isobel Yeung navigates gun battles, combat raids and secretive meetings deep inside the occupied West Bank. What she finds raises serious questions about the conduct of the Israeli military.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
Vic said:
I can't be bothered picking all the holes in that. "Forget the settlements" - yes I have a problem if someone is going to Israel to support and vote for a government that supports the settlements. The creation of the state of Israel was against the self-determination of the people they displaced. And anti-Zionism was primarily (originally) a Jewish thing, so cannot be automatically antisemitic (and the IHRA definition and examples don't mention Zionism).

Jump to the last sentence that a Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa. The vice versa is happening before your eyes.
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I don't really see the point in this argument. The fault of this lies with the politics of the Israeli government which I criticise and do not support. Not everybody in Israel supports Netanyahu.

Let's try to avoid that given the hypocrisy that you question Israeli nationalist votes for Netanyahu but you don't question the Palestinian nationalist support for the current terrorist authority in Gaza.

I don't know what the solution to the current problem is but it is not the removal of Israel as a nation state or the prevention of Jewish people from exercising their rights. If that right is removed then what are we talking about other than the argument that Israel should not exist?

Or are you saying that instead Israel should be some mashed up state of whoever lived there before and not much else given they're now all banned from living there and can't be allowed the right to vote etc?
 
BayernMan said:
This is the crux of the issue. Nothing can be solved until this is discussed not forgotten.
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If all the settlements were returned and a Palestinian state established on those lines with an Israeli state existing alongside then would there be peace? Really? Is that what Hamas is demanding?
 
inbetween said:
If all the settlements were returned and a Palestinian state established on those lines with an Israeli state existing alongside then would there be peace? Really? Is that what Hamas is demanding?
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To be honest groups like Hamas are irrelevant because they source their influence through a lack of Palestinians right of self determination. A two state or one state solution will not be an instant miracle cure but it will go a LONG way to improving things by undercutting their influence. Most importantly it’s never been tried before but we do have a long track record of what results 75 years of military occupation yields.
 
BayernMan said:
Why do some other indigenous people of the Middle East have to pay for crimes committed by European bigotry towards Jews?
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Because the winners write the new rules and the losers have to live with them…until another war changes that. So far, it hasn’t.
 
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