Middle East Conflict

[BayernMan]

 

[Dax777]

Well I’m on the side of let’s not bomb innocent civilians into oblivion. 1.2 million Iraqi people died in the Iraq war. Do you think that’s an acceptable sacrifice to rid the world of ISIS? Because I think slaughtering that staggering number of people is infinitely worse than whatever barbarity and brutality ISIS could ever hope to inflict on the world.

You are conflating two different things.
1. Is the war in Iraq.

2. The War against ISIL. No need to complete the numbers.


By most estimates about 23 to 25 thousand Civilians were killed by US or otherç Coalition forces in the push to neutralize ISIL. ISiL on the other hand killed between 44 to 48 thousand Civilians.

While I admit it's horrible the number of Civilians that got caught in this war, the alternative was always far worse.

Like I said, thete aren't many solutions, just tradeoffs.

 

[halfcenturyup]

You are conflating two different things.
1. Is the war in Iraq.

2. The War against ISIL. No need to complete the numbers.


By most estimates about 23 to 25 thousand Civilians were killed by US or otherç Coalition forces in the push to neutralize ISIL. ISiL on the other hand killed between 44 to 48 thousand Civilians.

While I admit it's horrible the number of Civilians that got caught in this war, the alternative was always far worse.

Like I said, thete aren't many solutions, just tradeoffs.

My only concern (actually, one of my many concerns) with the "reduce the effectiveness" argument, and I do get what you are saying, is that it isn't a solution at all. At best, it's a temporary non-solution and the next iteration of the ideological movement always seems to be more extreme, I suppose quite understandably, the number of civilians you kill.

The fact nothing has replaced IS yet doesn't fill me with confidence that something worse won't rise up, unless the underlying causes are being addressed sensibly and in a "civilised" fashion. If anything we should be taking the "IS sabbatical" to do just that. Yet here we are.

The "victors" in a war should show some compassion and understanding of the enemy's position to prevent the same happening again. I don't see any of that happening here. It's just destroy, destroy and destroy again and shame about innocent deaths. The world's "leaders" need to be better than that.

All imho, of course.

 

[halfcenturyup]

No chance of that happening mate, when they’ve gotten away with 75 years of war crimes and every attempt by the UN to prosecute them has been shut down by the US.

While they have US and European backing the sociopaths in charge of this European colonial settler movement are essentially untouchable.

The hypocrisy and double standards of western politicians is frankly disgusting and every single one of the cunts that “stands with Israel” are complicit in the genocide we see unfolding in front of us.

Interesting question. If the Israelis are accused of war crimes, and western countries who are party to the Rome Statute are supplying them with arms, and those arms are used in the war crimes (stay with me), can the leaders of those western powers be charged by the ICC?

Clearly, there is no ICC jurisdiction over the US and Israel, as neither signed up as a party to it (I wonder why?), but the UK, France and others did, of course.

Just interested, no more than that.

 

[KPXBLN]

Not sure if on purpose is the right phrase there, do you mean directly? It’s on purpose in that they know by going after Hamas the way they are, they will knowingly kill plenty of innocent civilians too.

They know they will kill civilians in very large numbers. To my mind, ‘intention to do X’ = ‘deliberately and consciously doing something whose consequences include X.’ Exactly how happy they are about the civilian deaths is a seperate conversation, although the public pronouncements of Israeli politicians and military in the last few weeks show they aren’t exactly wringing their hands.

 

[Keeper!]

After careful consideration I’ve come to the conclusion that Netanyahu is a nonce ****.

Very sensible and correct appraisal.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Not sure if on purpose is the right phrase there, do you mean directly? It’s on purpose in that they know by going after Hamas the way they are, they will knowingly kill plenty of innocent civilians too.

I would suggest the correct word to deploy is reckless. Israel is reckless to the loss of innocent life in their anger fuelled campaign of vengeance against Hamas.

 

[dublinblue12]

I wonder if these people demanding a ceasefire have even spared a thought for the poor American arms dealers and what that would mean to them. How on earth are they supposed to make a profit if these anti Semites had their way. Surely at this point they understand the only way to prevent the loss of innocent lives is through aerial bombardment, starvation and the prevention of essential aid getting through. How would a ceasefire help with that. And look not even a single half and half anti Hamas / IDF Ceasefire scarf or flag to be seen, that proves they have an agenda

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I wonder if these people demanding a ceasefire have even spared a thought for the poor American arms dealers and what that would mean to them. How on earth are they supposed to make a profit if these anti Semites had their way. Surely at this point they understand the only way to prevent the loss of innocent lives is through aerial bombardment, starvation and the prevention of essential aid getting through. How would a ceasefire help with that.

Agreed. American arms manufacturers will be making “a killing”. At least Starmer has been forced to move a little in his opinion although he disagrees with a ceasefire. He’s in a difficult situation politically.

The latest protests in London were led by Jewish people wanting a ceasefire. That may well be a minority of Jewish Londoners wanting a ceasefire but it must infuriate the knuckle draggers on social media. No doubt the paid shills will still be out in force though.

Some Jewish Londoners are genuinely in fear about the pro Palestine protests but it doesn't help when Braverman and co misrepresent largely peaceful protests.

There has to be saner ways of taking out the leadership of Hamas than bombing refugee camps packed with civilians.