Middle East Conflict

BlueAnorak said:
It's war - it's what happens when a political decision is made to attack another country.
It's horrible but those are the consequences of declaring war.
As HAMAS actually wants to kill every Jew in Palestine. There isn’t much room for political agreement either.
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As I've said before, probably to you, they may want to but it's an absolutely impossible task.
On the other hand Israel is capable eradicating huge numbers of Palestinians.
Apart from that I think you'll find Hamas don't want to kill every Jew in Palestine. They want Israel to cease to exist. Not the same. But if your only argument is to keep repeating that fine. Ignore all the other historical facts which suggest that Israel have been sequestering Palestine land pretty much from the get go.
 
robbieh said:
As I've said before, probably to you, they may want to but it's an absolutely impossible task.
On the other hand Israel is capable eradicating huge numbers of Palestinians.
Apart from that I think you'll find Hamas don't want to kill every Jew in Palestine. They want Israel to cease to exist. Not the same. But if your only argument is to keep repeating that fine. Ignore all the other historical facts which suggest that Israel have been sequestering Palestine land pretty much from the get go.
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The original 1988 charter we is pretty clear on the end goal.
I'm fairly sure the 2017 update was designed to hide the unpalatable truth.
www.wilsoncenter.org

Hamas: Words and Deeds…

www.wilsoncenter.org www.wilsoncenter.org
"To put lipstick on a pig" as my Grandma used to say. "At the end of the day it is still a pig."
 
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BlueAnorak said:
1 Palestian who doesn't support HAMAS is too many.
But Israel can't let HAMAS exist as a force at the end of this war. It would mean they could just keep attacking Isael with no come back.
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But even you must realise that you can’t get rid of them like this, they don’t particularly care in fact it’s playing right into their hands, it proves their point

Besides the fact it’s just looking like vengeance now, shelling where people are sheltering, bombing bakeries, tell me if you are a Palestinian kid watching all this plus the brutality on the West Bank, you are going to want to fight back it’s entirely counterproductive
 
Ducado said:
But even you must realise that you can’t get rid of them like this, they don’t particularly care in fact it’s playing right into their hands, it proves their point

Besides the fact it’s just looking like vengeance now, shelling where people are sheltering, bombing bakeries, tell me if you are a Palestinian kid watching all this plus the brutality on the West Bank, you are going to want to fight back it’s entirely counterproductive
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Hamas fughters and IDF troops are fighting and dieing so thats not true. But I do wish Isreal would lay off targetting anything other than what fires back at them. It is counter poroductive.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Seen in the recent demo in Birmingham:

For those who don't want to know it is a reference to the founding charter of Hamas and is a call to all followers of Islam to murder Jews.
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It's more than that.

It's referencing a hadith (saying of Prophet Muhammad) that can be found in the Sahihayn, the two collections of traditions about what Muhammad said and did that are regarded by Muslims as the most reliable books after the Qur'an itself.

It is also about the End Times. According to Jean Pierre-Filiu in his book Apocalypse in Islam, 'The execution of the Antichrist is accompanied by the extermination of all those Jews who have persevered in impiety rather than convert to Islam.' The full passage reads as follows:

'The Last Hour will not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and kill them. And when a Jew will hide behind a [stone] wall or a tree, the wall or tree will cry out "O Muslim! O servant of Allah! There is a Jew behind me". And [the Muslim] will come to kill him. Only the gharqad [will remain silent], for it is the tree of the Jews.'

Unsurprisingly, it is often latched onto by Salafi-Jihadists as a justification for their antisemitism.

Fortunately, that is not the end of the matter.

The foremost academic expert on Hadith in the world is Jonathan AC Brown. In his book Misquoting Muhammad: the Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet's Legacy, after acknowledging that this one 'was attested by the most respected early narrators' and that 'from the perspective of Sunni Hadith criticism it was above reproach', he nevertheless insists that because it is an eschatological hadith, 'it might still be unreliable.'

What he goes on to argue is that End Time hadiths might have been given an easier ride when it came to establishing their veracity, as this laxity towards them was a general feature of early Sunni Hadith criticism.

Only mentioning this because it illustrates very well a point I have made in other posts: if you have a sufficiently large enough corpus of scripture, you will probably be able to find passages which justify what you have already decided to believe or do, or you can interpret relevant ones in a manner that also suits your purpose.

The different approaches to the Hadith of Fighting Jews are exemplified by Brown and that placard holding woman, which suggests that their verdicts were prefabricated.

That Hamas Charter you mentioned also references the fraudulent Protocols of the Elders of Zion and treats this publication as if it were authentic (though I gather that the Charter was modified a few years ago so am not sure if the reference is still there).

Just thought it might be helpful to sketch in some of the background to the photo in that tweet.
 
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