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Middle East Conflict
- Thread starter The blue phantom
- Start date
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly what you're doing with Israel.Us and the US are still trying to dictate who runs countries we don't like.
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese
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PalestineWhich is exactly what you're doing with Israel.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
No such place. That was the name of the territory controlled by the British Mandate. It ceased to exist after the Mandate ended in May 1948. After the War of Independence the West Bank was then annexed by Jordan.Palestine
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
This "harmonious unity" was amply demonstrated when Arabs regularly took part in massacres of Jews in the 1920's and 1930's, including the Hebron massacre. The Arab riots of 1933-36 were instrumental in the British decision to limit migration, even when the situation in Germany was clear. The Germans wanted rid of the Jews, many Jews wanted to go but no one would take them.So anyone saying "from the river to the sea" could be reported to the police, but would it be a defence to cite Likud's original platform that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"? Or the various Zionist groups who would regard "the land of Israel" as including both sides of the Jordan (there was even a song for that - though the original imagined a harmonious unity between the Arab, the Christian and the Jew", being more about the kingdom of Jordan as "artificial").
In fact, the original proposal for post-Mandate Palestine was that it was run by a combined authority of Arabs and Jews, a bit similar to the power-sharing agreement that brought about the NI Assembly. The Jewish agency wasn't that keen but the Arabs totally rejected it. That's your "harmonious unity".
And post-1948 (and even before in some Arab countries) Jews who had lived there happily and successfully for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, were persecuted and even expelled. This accelerated post 1948 and then was pretty well complete after 1967. So, tell me again about "harmonious unity".
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That's a bit odd.This "harmonious unity" was amply demonstrated when Arabs regularly took part in massacres of Jews in the 1920's and 1930's, including the Hebron massacre. The Arab riots of 1933-36 were instrumental in the British decision to limit migration, even when the situation in Germany was clear. The Germans wanted rid of the Jews, many Jews wanted to go but no one would take them.
In fact, the original proposal for post-Mandate Palestine was that it was run by a combined authority of Arabs and Jews, a bit similar to the power-sharing agreement that brought about the NI Assembly. The Jewish agency wasn't that keen but the Arabs totally rejected it. That's your "harmonious unity".
And post-1948 (and even before in some Arab countries) Jews who had lived there happily and successfully for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, were persecuted and even expelled. This accelerated post 1948 and then was pretty well complete after 1967. So, tell me again about "harmonious unity".
The relevant words of the song were
"From the wealth of our land there shall prosper The Arab, the Christian, and the Jew." So it's not my idea of harmonious unity.
It was by a Zionist who'd been imprisoned by the British for possession of weapons for training in self-defence.
Home Manchester has been showing The Tinderbox, a journey of discovery by a part-British secular Jew. She blames the British for offering self-government to the Arabs for their help in WW1 then promising the same land as a Jewish homeland.
I'm not sure there's much in the film that says anything new (just making a film about what she didn't know!) and the best idea she has to solve anything is "treat others as you would have them treat you" (a bit of a messianic idea that!).
She actually thinks part of the support in Britain and elsewhere for a Jewish homeland was anti-semitic, as in "a way to get rid of our Jews". I'm not sure about that, but some of the comments of Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner in Palestine in the early 1920s now seem very optimistic about harmonious relationships.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
There's probably some truth in that story about British support for a Jewish homeland being seen as a potential opportunity to get rid of the Jews. The only Cabinet member who opposed it was (I think) Samuel Hoare, the only Jewish minister.That's a bit odd.
The relevant words of the song were
"From the wealth of our land there shall prosper The Arab, the Christian, and the Jew." So it's not my idea of harmonious unity.
It was by a Zionist who'd been imprisoned by the British for possession of weapons for training in self-defence.
Home Manchester has been showing The Tinderbox, a journey of discovery by a part-British secular Jew. She blames the British for offering self-government to the Arabs for their help in WW1 then promising the same land as a Jewish homeland.
I'm not sure there's much in the film that says anything new (just making a film about what she didn't know!) and the best idea she has to solve anything is "treat others as you would have them treat you" (a bit of a messianic idea that!).
She actually thinks part of the support in Britain and elsewhere for a Jewish homeland was anti-semitic, as in "a way to get rid of our Jews". I'm not sure about that, but some of the comments of Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner in Palestine in the early 1920s now seem very optimistic about harmonious relationships.
I'm pretty certain though that Balfour was a genuine convert to the Zionist cause, due to his introduction to and friendship with Chaim Weizmann. That introduction came via Louis Dreyfus who set up Clayton Aniline, where the CFA now stands.
You're right that many promises were made to many people by the British but the Balfour Declaration never intended there to be a Jewish state, but a 'homeland'. So Herbert Samuel tried to accommodate that by offering a power sharing agreement. Once that was rejected then there was little hope for a negotiated, peaceful arrangement.
I'd take slight issue with your statement that the British were offering the same land to Arabs & Jews. The British controlled the Arabian peninsula (what's now Saudi, Oman, UAE, plus Iraq, Jordan and Israel/Occupied Territories post WW1. Once they'd parceled all that up and given it to various tribal chiefs, the Palestine Mandate was the bit left over.
It ceased to exist !!! No come on, please tell me someone has hacked your account. The British govt. and others may have made decisions but there were people living there, they had done for centuries. If we accept Israeli Jews have a right to live there so do others. During the first World War the UK govt. promised Palestinians self control IF they helped the British against the Ottoman empire. The UK govt. lied and renaged on that promise.No such place. That was the name of the territory controlled by the British Mandate. It ceased to exist after the Mandate ended in May 1948. After the War of Independence the West Bank was then annexed by Jordan.
There will never be peace whilst the Israeli government expand, populate and control land using an army to subjate people.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
I agree with a couple of additional points. There will also never be peace while terrorist organisations like Hamas deny Israel's right to exist, and they continue to use the Palestinian people as cannon fodder.It ceased to exist !!! No come on, please tell me someone has hacked your account. The British govt. and others may have made decisions but there were people living there, they had done for centuries. If we accept Israeli Jews have a right to live there so do others. During the first World War the UK govt. promised Palestinians self control IF they helped the British against the Ottoman empire. The UK govt. lied and renaged on that promise.
There will never be peace whilst the Israeli government expand, populate and control land using an army to subjate people.
I've said it before but it's the minority of extremists on both sides who are at the core of the problem.
Hamas will always thrive as long as innocents are subjugated.I agree with a couple of additional points. There will also never be peace while terrorist organisations like Hamas deny Israel's right to exist, and they continue to use the Palestinian people as cannon fodder.
I've said it before but it's the minority of extremists on both sides who are at the core of the problem.
Do you believe Israel has the right to expand into land that was never 'given' to them as part of the original agreement?
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
The simple answer is no, as it's made a bad situation worse, but as usual it's always more complex than a simple answer. Back in 1967, Israel finally had some defence in depth against belligerent Arab neighbours , so I can understand why it didn't want to go back to the pre-1967 situation.Hamas will always thrive as long as innocents are subjugated.
Do you believe Israel has the right to expand into land that was never 'given' to them as part of the original agreement?
But it what it should have then done, in hindsight, was to give the West Bank Palestinians some element of self-governance, which the Jordanians denied them after 1948, while retaining some oversight. That way, there's a chance of decent governance, instead of the appalling leadership they've suffered from the corruption and general uselessness of the Palestinian Authority.
I've always believed that the key to solving the problem is economic. Give people wealth, and some element of control over their lives, and they're less bothered about fighting. On the other hand, if you keep them poor and subjugated, you get what you've got now.
Bluemoon_420
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Ah the good old Zionist logic, that Palestine did not exist because they didn’t have a currency, national boundaries, etc. By that logic you would also deny that the Native Americans existed, because they didn’t have nation states recognisable to the Europeans. And indeed, that is how the colonisation of the Americas happened - violently, and bordering on genocide, and above all, grounded in racism! Sounds familiar!!!No such place. That was the name of the territory controlled by the British Mandate. It ceased to exist after the Mandate ended in May 1948. After the War of Independence the West Bank was then annexed by Jordan.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
Ah the good old Zionist logic, that Palestine did not exist because they didn’t have a currency, national boundaries, etc. By that logic you would also deny that the Native Americans existed, because they didn’t have nation states recognisable to the Europeans. And indeed, that is how the colonisation of the Americas happened - violently, and bordering on genocide, and above all, grounded in racism! Sounds familiar!!!
Do you do stand-up? You should as that's one of the funniest replies I've ever read. I've actually been on the Navajo Reservation as it happens and met a few Native Americans. So I know they exist. And their treatment has been (and still is) appalling. But what should the European settlers who created the USA do? All go home to Ireland, Germany, Poland, the UK, Italy, Spain etc? Yet you'd be quite happy if all the Jews went "home". Are the descendants of Jewish migrants not, by your definition, Palestinians? Some of them would be third or fourth generation now. It gets very dangerous if you start extending that logic to, say, the UK?
But you're right that Palestine did actually exist, as it was the Roman name for an exclusively Jewish state that the natives called Judea. But after the Romans put down the revolt, captured Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple in 70AD, there has never been a self-governing entity there. Until 1948 of course. So you can make up all the history you like but you can't change facts.
I
I
inbetween
Guest
It isn't quite as simple as that. Hamas and its allying nations don't believe that Israel has the right to exist. The Hamas charter of 1988 (now updated in 2017 to remove the anti-semitism!) literally advocated jihad and genocide against Jewish people, not to the old borders but to restore Palestine and remove the Israeli state.Hamas will always thrive as long as innocents are subjugated.
Do you believe Israel has the right to expand into land that was never 'given' to them as part of the original agreement?
Israel is never going to agree to its own extermination.
You haven't read or understood what I said. As long as their is conflict as long as Palestinians are being subjugated then Hamas will be there.It isn't quite as simple as that. Hamas and its allying nations don't believe that Israel has the right to exist. The Hamas charter of 1988 (now updated in 2017 to remove the anti-semitism!) literally advocated jihad and genocide against Jewish people, not to the old borders but to restore Palestine and remove the Israeli state.
Israel is never going to agree to its own extermination.
How are Palestinians ever going to agree any kind of peace if Israel continue to expand.
That said, I fully accept even if Israel returned to its original agreed borders, there will still be violence because as you say, some do not want the state of Israel to exist. However, it would be a starting point for a possible peaceful solution.
Sadly another attack goes virtually unnoticed by the world. This time a Palestinian gunman attacked a bar in Tel Aviv killed two Israelis and injured 12. He was later shot dead by security forces.
The Palestinian was from the occupied West Bank.
What ever the rights and wrongs argued by both sides, until politicians start acting like human beings, innocent people will continue to die.
The Palestinian was from the occupied West Bank.
What ever the rights and wrongs argued by both sides, until politicians start acting like human beings, innocent people will continue to die.
M
M
mat
Guest
I have a radical solution.
Swap the scousers for Palestinians.
Swap the scousers for Palestinians.
PannickAtTheDisco
Well-Known Member
will we have to deal with them playing victim too and claiming that deaths from Hamas bombings weren't their responsibility because the Israelis occupation made them do it and they were somehow helpless to avoid their own actions?I have a radical solution.
Swap the scousers for Palestinians.