More than half of Brits want burka ban

Very complex issue with no quick fix answer. I understand why perhaps some people feel threatened, the security issue etc. I think the answer is a long game around education and inclusion. We cant know how many of the women are choosing to wear them and how many are coerced. I am uncomfortable with an outright ban as i think it goes our long held views on religious tolerance. A ban will just give credence to those who claim we are all racist and Islamophobic.
 
steviemc said:
Not sure a ban should really be a necessity or would be useful, however people who wear a garment that makes you look radically different from the norm (based on the cultures and/or history of a specific country) shouldn't be too surprised if people find this uncomfortable or unusual.

It's probably more ridiculous to expect the majority of people to accept this as quite normal, as there are many things that make us feel uncomfortable around others. We all have different preferences and tolerances, and cultural comfort together with familiarity are particularly strong ones, as these are formed from such an early age. This is primarily why we make the life choices we do.

We are often more comfortable around people who are similar to us, and who have more in common with us (be that personality, clothes style, sense of humour etc.). That's a proven fact.

Yes, we should aim to be tolerant, open-minded and all-encompassing towards all humans, irrespective of cultural differences, however it would be prudent to remember that there are many who feel they are being taken too far out of their comfort zone in accepting these differences. Dismissively tagging a person's discomfort as something racially motivated, is not only lazy, but also ruins any attempt at serious discussion.
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The thing is people have been doing this for years, Punks with Mohawks and goths with facepaint, skaters with piercings and earlobe elongator thingys. All of these groups look "radically different from the norm" and many people "find this uncomfortable or unusual" yet there has never been a serious discussion on here, or in the media, or anywhere else about banning these things.

The difference in the reaction to the Burqa than to huge numbers of other sub cultures is the reason that it is "dismissively tagged as racist", because all of the arguments used by the people who want it banned are almost always thinly veiled racism, defended by racist apologists. People calling for an outright ban are, in my view, in the vast majority scared islamaphobes, they haven't tried to ban Bee Keepers from wearing their veils, nuns, motorcyclists, fancy dress masks or anything else that is similar, so why are they so keen to ban Burqa's.

The only places where a Burqa should not be allowed are those places where Motorbike helmets, hoodies or caps also have to be removed, Banks, Pubs and Clubs ect. where there is a genuine security issue. That i could fully and wholeheartedly support.

This is all coming from someone who has a fairly and equally scathing view of all religions. By that i mean that religious people are all pretty much idiots but as long as they don't harm anyone (which 99.9% of Muslims don't) then who am i to stop them singing their songs and bigging up their beardy man.
 
Southbanken said:
The difference in the reaction to the Burqa than to huge numbers of other sub cultures is the reason that it is "dismissively tagged as racist", because all of the arguments used by the people who want it banned are almost always thinly veiled racism, defended by racist apologists. People calling for an outright ban are, in my view, in the vast majority scared islamaphobes, they haven't tried to ban Bee Keepers from wearing their veils, nuns, motorcyclists, fancy dress masks or anything else that is similar, so why are they so keen to ban Burqa's.
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Yep, the same as the people who got a sudden interest in animal rights when the subject of halal food came up.

Incidentally, there's a quick an easy solution to the halal meat in schools debate: schools should go vegetarian. It's cheaper and healthier, and no-one has any religious objections to the consumption of vegetables or only eats vegetables that have been picked in a certain way.
 
Southbanken said:
People calling for an outright ban are, in my view, in the vast majority scared islamaphobes, they haven't tried to ban Bee Keepers from wearing their veils, nuns, motorcyclists, fancy dress masks or anything else that is similar, so why are they so keen to ban Burqa's.
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Barking up the wrong tree here.

Bee keepers is just silly, I can't say I've ever seen one.
Nuns wear something resembling a hijab, not a burqa, and it doesn't cover the eyes, nose and mouth.
Motorcyclists have to take their helmet off before entering shops.
 
bumbleblue said:
Very complex issue with no quick fix answer. I understand why perhaps some people feel threatened, the security issue etc. I think the answer is a long game around education and inclusion. We cant know how many of the women are choosing to wear them and how many are coerced. I am uncomfortable with an outright ban as i think it goes our long held views on religious tolerance. A ban will just give credence to those who claim we are all racist and Islamophobic.
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I'm not sure anyone genuinely thinks its a security issue. They are offended by it in principle, and let's be honest, they are right to be offended by its very existence. It's a disgusting concept and a spit in the face of women's rights, regardless of whether the individual woman has freely chosen to wear it or not. But obviously being offended by something is no reason to ban it, whether it be an item of clothing or a cartoon of a religious figure.
 
I've seem many young Muslim women especially in London suburbs wearing trendy European clothes. I think they prefer to dress this way by their own choice, if they are allowed to that is. Some drink in bars and are(almost) fully integrated into British society, mixing with other people who are not Muslim. The way it should be . Many young Muslim guys drink smoke and gamble, many don't fast for Ramadan like their elders think they do, forced into going to the local Mosque under duress. I know this as I have spoken to quite a few who say they just want to be allowed to integrate and get on with life, without being told what to do, when to prey, what clothes to wear, and when to fast.

However, I've seen Muslims driving whilst wearing a Niqab with only a thin slit(less than 2 cm) for them to see out of. This cannot be right IMO as their vision is greatly impaired by it. I don't think Burqas and Niqab(eye slit veils) should be worn in public places based on being a security threat in that some fanatical suicide bomber can potentially blow up many innocent people.

I wonder how many Muslim women in this country are forced to wear Burkas and Niqabs against their will, the majority I think.
 
bluemoon risin' said:
I've seem many young Muslim women especially in London suburbs wearing trendy European clothes. I think they prefer to dress this way by their own choice, if they are allowed to that is. Some drink in bars and are(almost) fully integrated into British society, mixing with other people who are not Muslim. The way it should be . Many young Muslim guys drink smoke and gamble, many don't fast for Ramadan like their elders think they do, forced into going to the local Mosque under duress. I know this as I have spoken to quite a few who say they just want to be allowed to integrate and get on with life, without being told what to do, when to prey, what clothes to wear, and when to fast.

However, I've seen Muslims driving whilst wearing a Niqab with only a thin slit(less than 2 cm) for them to see out of. This cannot be right IMO as their vision is greatly impaired by it. I don't think Burqas and Niqab(eye slit veils) should be worn in public places based on being a security threat in that some fanatical suicide bomber can potentially blow up many innocent people.

I wonder how many Muslim women in this country are forced to wear Burkas and Niqabs against their will, the majority I think.
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I think a fanatical suicide bomber could blow innocent people up whatever they are wearing.

As to whether they wear it against their will or not, most probably wear them freely as they are heavily indoctrinated by social and religious conditioning from a very early age.
 
SWP's back said:
I think a fanatical suicide bomber could blow innocent people up whatever they are wearing.

They could yes.

As to whether they wear it against their will or not, most probably wear them freely as they are heavily indoctrinated by social and religious conditioning from a very early age.
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Not so sure about most wear them freely mate, many will though, and I agree (from what you stated) A lot of the Muslims born here want to have freedom of choice it think, which many are denied.
 
bluemoon risin' said:
I've seem many young Muslim women especially in London suburbs wearing trendy European clothes. I think they prefer to dress this way by their own choice, if they are allowed to that is. Some drink in bars and are(almost) fully integrated into British society, mixing with other people who are not Muslim. The way it should be . Many young Muslim guys drink smoke and gamble, many don't fast for Ramadan like their elders think they do, forced into going to the local Mosque under duress. I know this as I have spoken to quite a few who say they just want to be allowed to integrate and get on with life, without being told what to do, when to prey, what clothes to wear, and when to fast.

However, I've seen Muslims driving whilst wearing a Niqab with only a thin slit(less than 2 cm) for them to see out of. This cannot be right IMO as their vision is greatly impaired by it. I don't think Burqas and Niqab(eye slit veils) should be worn in public places based on being a security threat in that some fanatical suicide bomber can potentially blow up many innocent people.

I wonder how many Muslim women in this country are forced to wear Burkas and Niqabs against their will, the majority I think.
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Of course they are pressured into wearing it, everyone gets their kids christened in this country without any knowledge or reason why. I was christened and everyone I know was but I don't believe in god nor a concept of a god yet I am pretty certain my kids will be christened. When I was at school I had to go to church, I wasn't asked, I HAD to go and that continues today in every Catholic/C of E school in the country.

That pressure exists because of the surroundings and environment you get brought up in, it doesn't mean though that those who happen to wear the burqa don't want to and are all quivering wrecks being beaten by their overlord husbands under there or worse... Terrorists. If they wore a dress of roses instead of a black sheet then I'm sure perceptions would change but that isn't so. It is alien to our culture but to them it isn't so we should just let them get on with it and really start worrying about something else.

I certainly wouldn't worry because I bet they enjoy better freedoms and rights here then back in a strict middle east country. At least here bar the family pressures they will have the choice of whether to be Muslim at all. That is the beauty of this country, you have the choice to be, wear or do whatever you fancy and entertaining a ban only sees to erode and remove those freedoms.

Again, It is their religion so we should let them get on with it. Not letting them do so is discriminating for absolutely no reason and if they do happen to be doing something illegal under there it puts them in the same bracket as anyone else, with crime what frock they happen to be wearing is pretty irrelevant. The statistics are fully in favour of the fact that the vast majority of Muslim women wear the burqa and do not cause trouble nor get upto anymore bother then a rough, skinhead English lad does.
 
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