NATO

Fat Larrys Band said:
I think an American General, once said the UK was an unsinkable warship.

Now I think it is used by the yanks purely as a means of early warning for them, to give them a few extra minutes and as a target for the Russians, thus wasting a few nuclear weapons on us.

Now that satalite technology is so improved they don't really need us, unless it's to march along side them, in some pointless Middle Eastern war.
The UK need to form an European Army, with our close neighbours.

There is no special relationship with them... Never was, always turned up late to the war and then sold us their weapons and lent us money to rebuild our battered economy, which I think Gordon Brown finally paid off.
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Pennies are dropping with the armchair generals in the Russia Ukraine thread too now it seems.
It was never about the freedom of the Ukraine.
 
crooky said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Ukraine or the Ukraine: Why do some country names have 'the'?

As Ukraine prepares to co-host one of football's biggest tournaments, Euro 2012, why do fewer people these days say "The Ukraine"?
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Bit sad reading the article back when Ukraine was co-hosting the Euros.. The Donbass used in the tournament arena has been under Russian control for years now.
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I also don't have a pro Ukraine car sticker or Facebook profile. It seems I have been outed as a shill. :-)
 
cleavers said:
Funnily enough, I work in a key area that supports that deterent, and you're definitely wrong, it's totally independent, though clearly I can't discuss what I know.
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Trident is closely linked to the US’s nuclear programme, raising concerns about its independence. The missiles are US-built, and “the system relies on the US for maintenance” servicing is done by the US otherwise it’s independent.
Maybe it’s time to rethink our defence strategy
 
NATO as currently constituted is over.

There's zero chance that America under Trump will come to the aid of a nation invaded by Russia. And this sort of sentiment is very popular among Americans. Even if Trump is voted out of office in 4 years time and a pro-Democracy democrat is elected who resumes support of NATO - such support is ephemeral - the next US election may see another MAGA elected.

In short, Europe can no longer count on US support for anything.
 
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Kirkstall Blue said:
Trident is closely linked to the US’s nuclear programme, raising concerns about its independence. The missiles are US-built, and “the system relies on the US for maintenance” servicing is done by the US otherwise it’s independent.
Maybe it’s time to rethink our defence strategy
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I don't know about the maintenance side, but I do know firing it is totally independent, as @mosssideblue will confirm.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
NATO as currently constituted is over.
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Agree we will withdraw from NATO if we establish a European army of the willing.
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
There's zero chance that America under Trump will come to the aid of a nation invaded by Russia.
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America was reluctant during the Second World War, so it’s no surprise to find, they are still reluctant to help if Russia attacks Europe and Ukraine.
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
In short, Europe can no longer count on US support for anything.
Click to expand...
As long as a second Afghanistan or a third Iraq doesn’t arise, or the Middle East and Iran. NATO troops will still be needed. It’s hard to see a viable option the world is suddenly a messed up place. Russia and America on the same side.

Hegseth and security officials leaked highly sensitive plans about a Yemen military strike to a journalist over a group chat. It could have been accidentally on purpose, Vance was hinting at payment for American services as Europe uses the Suez Canal more than them. We are still coming to terms with the new world order.
 
Kirkstall Blue said:
Hegseth and security officials leaked highly sensitive plans about a Yemen military strike to a journalist over a group chat. It could have been accidentally on purpose, Vance was hinting at payment for American services as Europe uses the Suez Canal more than them. We are still coming to terms with the new world order.
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This was a monumental fuckup with zero upside; it beggars imagination that the leak was intentional.

First of all, it was discussion of war plans which is clearly top secret. And as such, should have been discussed in a SCIF - a compartmentalized facility specifically designed to ensure that no adversary would be able to eavesdrop, say by deploying highly sensitive sound detectors.

Second, top secret discussions should never ever occur on smartphones - because software and hardware on smartphones can be hacked.

Third, use of Signal - a publically available app - was specifically disallowed for use when communicating top secret information both because the devices on which Signal runs aren't secure and because Signal itself could be hacked.

Forth it turns out that one of the participants in the Signal chat (Tulsi Gabbard) was in Russia at the time.

Fifth - every single participant in war plan discussion should have been aware that use of Signal was entirely inappropriate and that a SCIF was required for this sort of communication. Yet they took no action to ensure that a SCIF was used and instead, blithely participated in a discussion of top secret war plans using an insecure application running on insecure devices and, in the case of Gabbard, in an obviously insecure location and then to top it all off, somehow invited a journalist with no security clearance into the chat by mistake.

Thus, each of these participants, with the exception of course of Goldberg - are manifestly incompetent:
1) Michael Waltz - National Security Advisor;
2) Pete Hegseth - Secretary of Defense;
3) JD Vance - Vice President;
4) Marco Rubio - Secretary of State;
5) Joe Kent - Nominee, Director of the National Conter Tererroism Center;
6) Tulsi Gabbard - Director of National Intelligence;
7) John Ratcliffe - CIA Director;
8) Susie Wiles - White House Chief of Staff;
9) Stephen Miller - Deputy White House Chief of Staff;
10) Steven Witkoff - Special Envoy for the Middle East and Ukraine;
11) Brian McCormack - National Security Council Official;
12) Dan Caldwell - Department of Defense Liaison;
13) Mike Needham - Counselor to the State Department;
14) Andy Baker - Representative from the Vice President's Office;
15) Dan Katz - Treasury Department Liaison;
16) Jeffrey Goldberg (accidentally included) - Editor in Chief, The Atlantic

A planned leak? "You've got to be kidding me," as Hillary herself stated.
 
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Kirkstall Blue said:
Hegseth and security officials leaked highly sensitive plans about a Yemen military strike to a journalist over a group chat. It could have been accidentally on purpose, Vance was hinting at payment for American services as Europe uses the Suez Canal more than them. We are still coming to terms with the new world order.
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Not a chance in hell it was on purpose.
 
cleavers said:
I don't know about the maintenance side, but I do know firing it is totally independent, as @mosssideblue will confirm.
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Once onboard UK Trident boats, the Submarine is responsible for the Operation, Maintenance and Support of the complete weapon system, including missiles, fire control and launcher systems.

As has been stated many times, the targets are UK selected and Launch is totally independent of the US.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
This was a monumental fuckup with zero upside; it beggars imagination that the leak was intentional.

For starters it was discussion of war plans which is clearly top secret.

And as such, should have been discussed only in a SCIF - a compartmentalized facility specifically designed to ensure that no adversary would be able to eavesdrop, say by deploying highly sensitive sound detectors.

Second any top secret discussion would never ever have been allowed to occur on smartphones - because software and hardware on smartphones can be hacked.

Third, use of Signal - a publically available app - was specifically disallowed for use when communicating top secret information both because the devices on which Signal runs aren't secure and because Signal itself could be hacked.

Forth it turns out that one of the participants in the Signal chat (Tulsi Gabbard) was in Russia at the time.

Fifth - every single member of the top secret war plan discussion should have been aware that use of Signal on smartphones was entirely inappropriate for discussion of top secret information and that a SCIF was required for this sort of communication.

Thus, each of these participants, with the exception of course of Goldberg - are manifestly incompetent:
1) Michael Waltz - National Security Advisor;
2) Pete Hegseth - Secretary of Defense;
3) JD Vance - Vice President;
4) Marco Rubio - Secretary of State;
5) Joe Kent - Nominee, Director of the National Conter Tererroism Center;
6) Tulsi Gabbard - Director of National Intelligence;
7) John Ratcliffe - CIA Director;
8) Susie Wiles - White House Chief of Staff;
9) Stephen Miller - Deputy White House Chief of Staff;
10) Steven Witkoff - Special Envoy for the Middle East and Ukraine;
11) Brian McCormack - National Security Council Official;
12) Dan Caldwell - Department of Defense Liaison;
13) Mike Needham - Counselor to the State Department;
14) Andy Baker - Representative from the Vice President's Office;
15) Dan Katz - Treasury Department Liaison;
16) Jeffrey Goldberg (accidentally included) - Editor in Chief, The Atlantic

A planned leak? "You've got to be kidding me," as Hillary herself stated.
Click to expand...
It seems the levels of stupidity is off the scale.

Against a competent adversary those American pilots would have been flying straight into an ambush.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
NATO as currently constituted is over.

There's zero chance that America under Trump will come to the aid of a nation invaded by Russia. And this sort of sentiment is very popular among Americans. Even if Trump is voted out of office in 4 years time and a pro-Democracy democrat is elected who resumes support of NATO - such support is ephemeral - the next US election may see another MAGA elected.

In short, Europe can no longer count on US support for anything.
Click to expand...
The core purpose of NATO and the nuclear deterrent remains intact. Ukraine is not as yet a member. I think sometimes we confuse NATO's mission/ purpose. Ukraine is no more an issue for NATO than crimea, Chechnya, Georgia etc. to be fair this confusion may be caused by some slight mission creep by NATO over the past couple of decades.
I'm certain that further russian expansion actually into a NATO member state would still be a red line - even for trump.
 
Kirkstall Blue said:
Agree we will withdraw from NATO if we establish a European army of the willing.

America was reluctant during the Second World War, so it’s no surprise to find, they are still reluctant to help if Russia attacks Europe and Ukraine.

As long as a second Afghanistan or a third Iraq doesn’t arise, or the Middle East and Iran. NATO troops will still be needed. It’s hard to see a viable option the world is suddenly a messed up place. Russia and America on the same side.

Hegseth and security officials leaked highly sensitive plans about a Yemen military strike to a journalist over a group chat. It could have been accidentally on purpose, Vance was hinting at payment for American services as Europe uses the Suez Canal more than them. We are still coming to terms with the new world order.
Click to expand...

One of the people in the group was in the Kremlin during the chat. His aides are claiming he only had his government provided, secure device with him, but that begs the question 'why did he have a third-party communications app on his phone when they, and specifically Signal are strictly prohibited'?

www.cbsnews.com

As top Trump aides sent texts on Signal, flight data show a member of the group chat was in Russia

As Trump Cabinet members sent texts on Signal, one of them, Steve Witkoff, was in Russia, but the White House says he didn't have his phone.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
 
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