Nigel Farage

threespires said:
Actually I don't consider that substantive tbh. Have you ever been in a political party? The higher up the greasy pole people get (or want to get) the more time they spend bitching about their own people and in internecine warfare rather than looking outward. Labour are bad for it but I think it's a common trait across most parties. Imo the fact that McFadden is the SoS isn't material in that exchange, it's a senior member of the party from one wing bitching about his lot with his mentor (who happens to have been discredited as someone almost or as treacherous towards the country as Farage). It's a useful line for the press to pick up on though.

As for the question of the bloated state the data says that irrespective of party the UK state has run pretty consistently at about 40% of GDP since the 1950s. The only substantive increase in percentage terms (by a couple of percentage points) has been during the Conservative government of the COVID and post covid era. Given what that government had to contend with I don't think that's a particular excessive increase and overall the data doesn't suggest that there's been a bloating of the state. Also the UK is pretty much in the middle of the pack for size of state in comparison to it's peers.

It obviously has a significantly larger state in percentage terms than the US and what has changed over the decades is the relentless narrative about our 'bloated' state driven mostly from actors on the other side of the Atlantic. Personally having spent a chunk of my working life there, I have no desire to live in a poundshop facsimile of the US.

Btw - I think the reason we've not been able to reclaim that couple of percentage points is because our economy has not been able to recover from COVID at the same rate as our peers and I think the reason for that is not the size of the state but the decades of under investment prior to the pandemic. The projection for the size of our state is to remain fairly stable with any midterm rises drive by age related social issues and our debt interest.

So how we stimulate the economy sufficiently is a source of contention but let's assume we can't or don't want to try and borrow our way out of it. Unfunded tax cuts will send the markets barmy so unless you want to completely overhaul pensions and old age provision then even savage cuts in other areas of expenditure is unlikely to raise enough revenue and that's before you consider the societal damage it might do. So tricky as it is I think we have to look at the people who are one of if not the biggest drag on the UK economy and that would be the portion of the super rich who simply extract wealth from the economy without investing in it.

Anyway that's for another thread and at least we are agreed that Farage is unfit for office, I think.
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You make two points about government spending. You say it’s remained largely static as a % of GDP but to do so we have had to cut spending (your point about decades of under investment). Parts of the state have obviously bloated (social and health) paid for by other parts that have shrunk or disappeared.

Pretty much all taxes have a negative impact on growth, but some are less negative than others. For example income tax cuts at the lower end is generally more beneficial to the recipient than those at the higher end of incomes however it matters a lot how and where that extra money is spent. If it is spent on tat from Temu or Shein then we end up exporting the money and it does fuck all for the UK economy, great for China’s.

In this regard Trump, for all his madness, has a point of sorts when it comes to tariffs. You need to make your imports more expensive to stimulate growth at home. Now whilst we shouldn’t (and can’t) enter a trade war with China or anyone else we should tighten our rules on VAT on small parcel imports.
 
metalblue said:
You make two points about government spending. You say it’s remained largely static as a % of GDP but to do so we have had to cut spending (your point about decades of under investment). Parts of the state have obviously bloated (social and health) paid for by other parts that have shrunk or disappeared.

Pretty much all taxes have a negative impact on growth, but some are less negative than others. For example income tax cuts at the lower end is generally more beneficial to the recipient than those at the higher end of incomes however it matters a lot how and where that extra money is spent. If it is spent on tat from Temu or Shein then we end up exporting the money and it does fuck all for the UK economy, great for China’s.

In this regard Trump, for all his madness, has a point of sorts when it comes to tariffs. You need to make your imports more expensive to stimulate growth at home. Now whilst we shouldn’t (and can’t) enter a trade war with China or anyone else we should tighten our rules on VAT on small parcel imports.
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Yeah both fair points. The shape of the state has undoubtedly changed and without actual checking the numbers you'd assume local government, housing and presumably defence are the biggest losers to accomodate the health and social budgets. To your point re the tax regime none of it inherently stimulates growth but some taxes are more regressive than others and some taxes can be vehicles to drive the behaviours we want. None of them exist in a vacuum they need to be part of a coherent economic strategy, please.
 
Heartofoakes64 said:
The problem is, he has been given so much scope to vent his division, by the failed multicultural social engineering experiment, implemented by the liberal elite. Without the ammunition people like Farage would have only blanks to fire.
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No. He has been given ammunition by failed economic growth, austerity, mass inequality, and the the cull of services. He and his like have then pointed the finger, repeatedly, and engineered their own media channels to help them.

Without the inequality, stagnant wages and culled services, hate would fail to thrive, and parasites like him who feed off it would die.
 
oldius said:
No. He has been given ammunition by failed economic growth, austerity, mass inequality, and the the cull of services. He and his like have then pointed the finger, repeatedly, and engineered their own media channels to help them.

Without the inequality, stagnant wages and culled services, hate would fail to thrive, and parasites like him who feed off it would die.
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I thought that was what I said
 
oldius said:
No. He has been given ammunition by failed economic growth, austerity, mass inequality, and the the cull of services. He and his like have then pointed the finger, repeatedly, and engineered their own media channels to help them.

Without the inequality, stagnant wages and culled services, hate would fail to thrive, and parasites like him who feed off it would die.
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Without the inequality, stagnant wages and culled services, hate would fail to thrive, and parasites like him who feed off it would die.

But that’s what politicians of all persuasions do.
 

meltonblue said:
I wouldn’t put all of them in the same bracket at all, that’s also part of the issue. It’s from the same narrative as the “we’ve had enough of experts”.
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what I mean is when one lot is accused of corruption you can bet the other lot have ammunition to retaliate look at those far left SNP with Sturgeon & husband. Mandelson. Milliband - in the pocket manufactures of renewable stuff. Burnham - Neville developments. QED
 
oldius said:
No. He has been given ammunition by failed economic growth, austerity, mass inequality, and the the cull of services. He and his like have then pointed the finger, repeatedly, and engineered their own media channels to help them.

Without the inequality, stagnant wages and culled services, hate would fail to thrive, and parasites like him who feed off it would die.
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There would be no “hate” if there was nothing to hate
 
Heartofoakes64 said:
what I mean is when one lot is accused of corruption you can bet the other lot have ammunition to retaliate look at those far left SNP with Sturgeon & husband. Mandelson. Milliband - in the pocket manufactures of renewable stuff. Burnham - Neville developments. QED
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Which is still just stupid people being stupid, we don’t need to all fall down the hole.
 
Heartofoakes64 said:
The problem is, he has been given so much scope to vent his division, by the failed multicultural social engineering experiment, implemented by the liberal elite. Without the ammunition people like Farage would have only blanks to fire.
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He does only have blanks to fire but there’s a significant section of the population that are criminally gullible. We’re not unique in this country having multiple morons voting for incompetent bullshitters. Hopefully we won’t make the same mistake as in the USA.
 
meltonblue said:
I wouldn’t put all of them in the same bracket at all, that’s also part of the issue. It’s from the same narrative as the “we’ve had enough of experts”.
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I’m not sure there’s a single sentence that could make me immediately think someone is a complete moron more quickly than “politicians are all the same”.

No, they’re not, for good and bad, and to pretend otherwise is ignorance and apathy usually pretending to be enlightenment.


What it really means is - “I’m too lazy to learn the difference despite the fact the outcomes of these elections majorly affect my life”
 
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