North Stand Construction Discussion

Coatigan said:
It is only normal if people don't have or set any standards. And because we then accept it as normal, it is hard to expect those standards. But it is entirely avoidable, and not unreasonable, and people do commit to it when it is included as a requirement. And that’s amongst the things that separate good from bad builders and arguably buildings.

It is entirely reasonable to expect a bit of care applied over a period of say 6 months, to stop a building looking like shit over the next 3 years when finished, and likely recurring over the next decade at times too.
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It's normal because people have cost expectations and those are the priority over standards. Welcome to the modern world.
 
pride in battle said:
Only pulling your leg mate :)
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Ok fair. I am obviously unravelling deeper rooted things, and they are more about than just the stand, and I did half want to resist getting drawn into it tbh.

But it is this normalising of basic laziness and attitudes that accept minimal effort and encourage apathy, that are the fucking plague of the industry and why construction in the UK has been, and continues to be a race to the fucking bottom.
 
supercity88 said:
It's normal because people have cost expectations and those are the priority over standards. Welcome to the modern world.
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See above. I am well aware of it and see it regularly, unfortunately. But it is utter laziness, because often the cost is minimal. May be the current baseline, but it is pathetic, and really could be a lot better.

It is the equivalent to builders chucking shit into gutters as they go to save the effort of disposing it, and then not caring when blockages appear months aftet they have fucked off elsewhere. And nobody thinking to say anything.

I will always resist that, for as long as I have any relevance.
 
Coatigan said:
It's not. You see it often, granted, but it’s not 'normal'.



By laying brick only in dry conditions. That includes artificial too, i.e covered, wrapping scaffolding, heaters, etc - rather than just waiting for dry sunny days which programme will rarely allow.

If those first salts don't get drawn out at the time of laying, they won't reoccur later.

That's btw from years of personal empirical efforts at it, fwiw. Tone can be misread, and I'm not trying to sound arsey here, I am responding to what I take as a genuine question, with what I know or think I know.

You do also get 'efflorescence free' brick. Most often glazed or semi glazed, and usually imported from Spain or made from spanish clays. But i've seen it get efflorescence too, and they then argue whether it is from the brick or the mortar. Forgetting that, it is fine being efflorescence free in Spain, where they lay it in compleyely different weather, and just bringing it here might not be enough.

They laid the brick on this one completely exposed, trough October to February months. Partly because there was no need for scaffolding, fair enough. But that then brings with it that risk. As others point out, it will eventually wear off though.
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I don't have a major problem with the efflorescence as you say it will go eventually. I do have a major problem with the actual bricklaying which is a proper Yosser Hughes job. When I see some of the fine examples of brickwork in Manchester on new builds the work on the stadium is shockingly bad. Even as a random pattern if that was intended it looks crap imo. I suspect however it is just very badly done. Far too late to fix but will remain an eyesore to me as long as I have eyes to see.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I don't have a major problem with the efflorescence as you say it will go eventually. I do have a major problem with the actual bricklaying which is a proper Yosser Hughes job. When I see some of the fine examples of brickwork in Manchester on new builds the work on the stadium is shockingly bad. Even as a random pattern if that was intended it looks crap imo. I suspect however it is just very badly done. Far too late to fix but will remain an eyesore to me as long as I have eyes to see.
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On a positive, I think when all done, that will be also be lost at scale and where the deliberate protrusions start to become evident, and with everything else around it finished too.
 
Coatigan said:
Na, he is right. Yes, it is the salts in the clay. But they only come out when laid in wet. If it is all done in a controlled way, they don't.

Next time you notice the white appearing in lines, you can bet that was where they left whatever course they got to uncovered and went home for the day, it rained overnight and brought it up. Cover the top when you leave it at the end of each shift, and that is avoided.
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Problem has always been moisture, compo in a silo has helped , no wet sand in the mix.
Wet bricks are still a cause of salts
 
Coatigan said:
See above. I am well aware of it and see it regularly, unfortunately. But it is utter laziness, because often the cost is minimal. May be the current baseline, but it is pathetic, and really could be a lot better.

It is the equivalent to builders chucking shit into gutters as they go to save the effort of disposing it, and then not caring when blockages appear months aftet they have fucked off elsewhere. And nobody thinking to say anything.

I will always resist that, for as long as I have any relevance.
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I don't disagree with you at all, but the priorities these days are time and money. Get it done as quickly as possible for as cheaply as possible. People therefore cut corners. It's not acceptable but I'd say it is now normal practice sadly.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I don't have a major problem with the efflorescence as you say it will go eventually. I do have a major problem with the actual bricklaying which is a proper Yosser Hughes job. When I see some of the fine examples of brickwork in Manchester on new builds the work on the stadium is shockingly bad. Even as a random pattern if that was intended it looks crap imo. I suspect however it is just very badly done. Far too late to fix but will remain an eyesore to me as long as I have eyes to see.
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It’s very difficult on complex builds to differentiate the brickwork built in situ or the preformed brick sections made in factories ( as in the vertical pillars with the lighting slots on each side of city square ). I think it unfair to criticise the bricklayers , more the architects/ specifiers for picking a brick that’s shaped like a bar or soap , compounded with black mortar rather than a complimentary colour!
 
jrb said:
Looking at the outside of the stand and the fan zone tonight, I don't think it will be ready this season. There is loads of work still to do. Of course I could be wrong.
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I could have swore blind that I read on here, at the start of the contract, that the start of this season was mentioned as a possible date for the stand to be open. Earlier this season, I was told that January was always the target date. Now? Fuck knows. I'm assuming that the contractors will be facing penalties for the late delivery of the project? As for the hotel; again, who knows? When did the major work start; 18 months ago? It seems to be dragging on. And on. And on.
 
Penders1957 said:
It’s very difficult on complex builds to differentiate the brickwork built in situ or the preformed brick sections made in factories ( as in the vertical pillars with the lighting slots on each side of city square ). I think it unfair to criticise the bricklayers , more the architects/ specifiers for picking a brick that’s shaped like a bar or soap , compounded with black mortar rather than a complimentary colour!
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I’m not talking about the preformed only the laid bricks.

 
BAB.DAB said:
Problem has always been moisture, compo in a silo has helped , no wet sand in the mix.
Wet bricks are still a cause of salts
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I appreciate the mix in mortar silos is dry , but without stating the obvious, the silos have a water connection to mix the mortar before use ;-)
 
Penders1957 said:
I appreciate the mix in mortar silos is dry , but without stating the obvious, the silos have a water connection to mix the mortar before use ;-)
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Storage of sand , if it got wet before the mix, it can cause salts.
Got told this back in the 80's when I use to hod carry for my uncle and his mate in the summer holidays.
They years of experience bricklaying had lead them to believe that
Wet bricks
Wet sand
Fairy liquid
Could cause salts .
They made good money in the 50's , building council houses.
 
Coatigan said:
It's not. You see it often, granted, but it’s not 'normal'.



By laying brick only in dry conditions. That includes artificial too, i.e covered, wrapping scaffolding, heaters, etc - rather than just waiting for dry sunny days which programme will rarely allow.

If those first salts don't get drawn out at the time of laying, they won't reoccur later.

That's btw from years of personal empirical efforts at it, fwiw. Tone can be misread, and I'm not trying to sound arsey here, I am responding to what I take as a genuine question, with what I know or think I know.

You do also get 'efflorescence free' brick. Most often glazed or semi glazed, and usually imported from Spain or made from spanish clays. But i've seen it get efflorescence too, and they then argue whether it is from the brick or the mortar. Forgetting that, it is fine being efflorescence free in Spain, where they lay it in compleyely different weather, and just bringing it here might not be enough.

They laid the brick on this one completely exposed, trough October to February months. Partly because there was no need for scaffolding, fair enough. But that then brings with it that risk. As others point out, it will eventually wear off though.
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Cheers for that, I stick to what I know so I ask a lot of questions.
Rorz88 said:
Could just leave the drone over the training ground so we can watch them train, you could become the new DH. I used to enjoy reading his reports
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Don't think City would appreciate that
 
Wednesday night.

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supercity88 said:
I don't disagree with you at all, but the priorities these days are time and money. Get it done as quickly as possible for as cheaply as possible. People therefore cut corners. It's not acceptable but I'd say it is now normal practice sadly.
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This is not news to either of us.

But lots can be done a hell of a lot better, even within that, and we both know it.

It is staggering that houses built in the 50s and 60s quickly for a fraction of the budget of those today, were built better and with more effort put into them. And it is all down to this fucking 'it's normal, let's not bother' mentality. Britain has always had wet weather, but efflorescence only became a thing when we started getting lazy. People throughout the ages have always adapted to building in ways that works with their weather conditions. Not just go, ach it's fine, it rains, whaddya gon a do. And that same mentality, is ultimately how you end up with grenfells happening.

If you were to look back through this thread, you would find ample examples of me praising builders here, be that for efforts of working at height, lining up steelwork, removing and manually carrying kalzip off the roof, etc etc. I.e, I am by no means negative for the sake of it, I recognise how grueling a job it is and can be, and applaud it at times. But it also has a real slide to it that really needs tackling.

At the end of the day, if any young blues in construction end up reading this diascussion, and take even a smidge of desire to have some level of pride and aspiration in their efforts, it is by no means a wasted exchange.
 
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