North Stand Construction Discussion

[youngbob]

I've sat in the North Stand for 20 years now. Always been envious of people who get to go up the 'hamster runs', so I'm absolutely delighted to get to go in entrance X instead of Z now. I miss City Square but it'll be worth it in time.

 

[Gone for a Burton]

Does the club know that not all fans come from Stockport or South Manchester?

The next loop is from Little Hulton stopping at -:
Pendleton
Salford Town Hall
Odsall
Manchester Docks Gate
Oyld Scaffold (Mugger Store)
Cricket Ground
Trofford Bar
Etihad.

The second service includes -:
Bishops Ablaze
Hotel Footfall
Macaris Chipper
The Sawyers Arms
Etihad.

Additional loops being considered include-:
Caddy’s Head
Freccles
Pats Croft
Sale Water Park
Stretford Precinct
Pomona Docks
Etihad

To be discontinued........

 

[DD]

What’s your take on the on the North stand expansion?
A construction contractor hasn’t been officially confirmed yet.(stand corrected on that)

Taking everything into consideration, how difficult will it be for the construction contractor to price this challenging and lengthy build correctly?

Aren’t the build costs supposed to be in the region of £300mill upwards already, with an unforeseen delays or issues?

All depends on the method of procurement.

If it's Design & Build then the chances are the tendered costs will be significantly higher than £300 million, but with City having a degree of certainty with the costs, barring 'unforeseen' extras that could not reasonably have been allowed for.

If it's a Traditional JCT Contract then the tendered price will be much lower, but with the very real and, in fact, probable, chance of costs escalating and then spiralling out of control.

Large construction projects seem to be moving towards an NEC Contract, these days, whereupon the two parties agree a target cost, say £300 million, and then if the works actually cost £350 million, both City and the Contractor share equally the £50 million 'hit'; i.e. City pay £25 million and so does the Contractor. However, if the costs actually came in at £250 million, they both share the saving, so City would pay them £25 million above the £250 million as a nice little bonus for keeping the costs to £50 million below the target cost. It works really well, because it incentivises the Contractor to keep costs down rather than escalate them.

 

[Coatigan]

Dont know mate, Im not a QS and I dont know what RIBA stages they have left to complete as regards design. My guess is it would be similar figures to the new Coop Arena. Its obviously smaller but its always much more complicated modifying an existing structure than building a new one (unless you're building something unique). So I would guess more like £350m rather than the earmarked £300m. Buts its a bit of a finger in the air without knowing the details.

What do you base that guess on, out of interest?

 

[Coatigan]

What’s your take on the on the North stand expansion?
A construction contractor hasn’t been officially confirmed yet.(stand corrected on that)

Taking everything into consideration, how difficult will it be for the construction contractor to price this challenging and lengthy build correctly?

Aren’t the build costs supposed to be in the region of £300mill upwards already, with an unforeseen delays or issues?

The reported £300m is the 'investment', or 'development cost ', as stated by the club. It is not the build cost or the construction budget.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Sorry to ask an obvious question but is it one year or two before this development opens?

I’m sure I read somewhere last week that it’s 100 weeks away from opening.

 

[jrb]

Thanks for all the replies. A very interesting insight into construction costing.

There must be a hell of a lot of pressure on the people costing construction projects to get the coatings right.

 

[Kompany Car]

What do you base that guess on, out of interest?

Purely scale and complexity, plus the shift in raw materials costs. Prefabricated structural steel has increased by around 20% in the last 12 months, labour costs have increased, concrete is still about 15% more than a year or so ago. Some things have fallen a bit from their peaks but nowhere near enough to offset the price increases of the core components.

BCIS are saying year on year overall costs are up by just short of 9% between Q1 2022 and Q1 2023 and are predicting a 2.9% increase each year so 15%ish would be quite conservative considering it wont be complete until 2025/26. It also aligns with Spons pricing guide values.

 

[Man_City_Loyal]

Does the club know that not all fans come from Stockport or South Manchester?

yes we do :-D

 

[Kompany Car]

All depends on the method of procurement.

If it's Design & Build then the chances are the tendered costs will be significantly higher than £300 million, but with City having a degree of certainty with the costs, barring 'unforeseen' extras that could not reasonably have been allowed for.

If it's a Traditional JCT Contract then the tendered price will be much lower, but with the very real and, in fact, probable, chance of costs escalating and then spiralling out of control.

Large construction projects seem to be moving towards an NEC Contract, these days, whereupon the two parties agree a target cost, say £300 million, and then if the works actually cost £350 million, both City and the Contractor share equally the £50 million 'hit'; i.e. City pay £25 million and so does the Contractor. However, if the costs actually came in at £250 million, they both share the saving, so City would pay them £25 million above the £250 million as a nice little bonus for keeping the costs to £50 million below the target cost. It works really well, because it incentivises the Contractor to keep costs down rather than escalate them.

I dont confess to be an expert in these matters, but the NEC 3 framework is pretty much like the old PPP system that they use to have years ago for government funded infrastructure. The main issue is that it can become a deal where the only real winners are the commercial lawyers.

JCT is just an opportunity to go in cheap and bang in loads of change as soon as you start. The tendering all becomes a big game and most of the score for the winning tender is on price rather than quality or knowledge/optimization of the design and build which could be cheaper in the long run.

Unfortunately all contracting systems are flawed. Whilst NEC3/4 is probably better it still requires people to play the game.