Oasis or The Roses?

[Nightmare Walking]

I loved New Order but If you can't see the Kraftwerk/Moroder similarities, I'm staggered

There are, they are quite startling in some aspects with Your Silent Fact being the prime candidate. But I do not remember Kraftwerk creating timeless pop songs with bass as lead on them.

...and I don't remember the Byrds or the La's with the overtly drummer influenced sound of the Roses...I guess it's just about opinions. A very personal and subjective thing, music.

Definitely, music is very subjective and it can become a tribal thing.

I was just pointing out why I do not think the Roses are that original when people are using Oasis' lack or originality as a stick to beat them with.

For the record, I think Depeche Mode are the most original band in my time but maybe thats for anotger thread.

 

[Stoned Rose]

I think this Oasis v Roses discussion has come down to which generation you come from.

More telling would be to see people preferences between The Roses and The Mondays. Pills, Thrills and Bellyaches is one of the greatest albums ever released and just pips the Roses. I would also have it as better than Definitely Maybe.

Pills n Thrills isn't even the Mondays best album. To claim it as one of the greatest albums of all time is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

The best known track on Pills is a cover.

How's that for 'original'?

 

[MCC]

I love both but oasis piss all over the roses.

 

[xenon_]

I love both but oasis piss all over the roses.

Judge them on their music, not their antics

 

[Stoned Rose]

Have seen people mention a few times now that the Roses sound was original.

Can someone let me know what was original about it?
Considering all the new sounds that were originating around 88 - 90, imo the sound of the Stone Roses was as unoriginal as you could get, compared to what else was being produced.

We know. You keep telling us. Your opinion and that's fine but many on here don't share it.

If you don't get what was original about them, you just didn't get the Roses.

Many did though.

All I have done is ask why people think they are original as I am seriously interested.

From a musical point of view, I can not see anything original about them. They were/are a 4 piece guitar driven pop band. Yes they played a couple of tunes backwards but that is hardly ground breaking.

Now Fools Gold and Begging You are the Roses most experimental work which they produced. Both of them are fantastic songs, but are they any more original than the stuff New Order were doing from 1982 onwards??

New Order were Kraftwerk with a mancunian accent. Hardly 'original'.

Now image wise, were they truly original? Covering everything in Jackson Pollock style paintings is not really original is it??

Why? has any other band ever done that?

You could go on about Ian Browns style as a frontman. Now Ian McCulloch was pulling that too cool for skool attitude long before Ian Brown. What is so original about The Stone Roses compared to the likes of Echo and The Bunnymen?

'Style' wise Brown absolutely shits on McCulloch:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuM9_-p-4JY[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0sdNIAXH4I[/video]

I appreciate people love the Roses, I am a big fan myself. But they get the credit for apparently creating this whole Madchester scene. Were they actually as important in the grand scheme of things as Rob Gretton, New Order, A Guy Called Gerald, 808 State, The Hacienda, and probably the most important man in the whole Madchester scene Mike Pickering.

Madchester was mainly a media/press 'creation'. Explain why Mike Pickering was the most important man in the Madchester scene?

The Roses are a fantastic band with maybe 15 top quality records which are timeless. But I have heard nothing or seen anything yet to convince me that they were any kind of originators.

Maybe I did not get the Roses, I have always preferred New Order and The Mondays. I find them 2 bands truly original. But I do appreciate the Roses even if I do not believe all the hype.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

I think this Oasis v Roses discussion has come down to which generation you come from.

More telling would be to see people preferences between The Roses and The Mondays. Pills, Thrills and Bellyaches is one of the greatest albums ever released and just pips the Roses. I would also have it as better than Definitely Maybe.

Pills n Thrills isn't even the Mondays best album. To claim it as one of the greatest albums of all time is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

The best known track on Pills is a cover.

How's that for 'original'?

I like Pills and Thrills, it is one of my favourite albums. I much prefer it to bumned. The perfecto production of it is fantastic. I know Step On was a remake of the John Kongos tune. But that is Ryders quality, he is able to rip pieces from other sources of music and then use them to come up with something totally fresh and original. Get Higher by Black Grape is proof of that.
I remember the NME had Pills and Thrills as album of the year in 1990, although they had Violator somewhere ridiculously low so maybe that is not a good barometer of quality.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

All I have done is ask why people think they are original as I am seriously interested.

From a musical point of view, I can not see anything original about them. They were/are a 4 piece guitar driven pop band. Yes they played a couple of tunes backwards but that is hardly ground breaking.

Now Fools Gold and Begging You are the Roses most experimental work which they produced. Both of them are fantastic songs, but are they any more original than the stuff New Order were doing from 1982 onwards??

New Order were Kraftwerk with a mancunian accent. Hardly 'original'.

Now image wise, were they truly original? Covering everything in Jackson Pollock style paintings is not really original is it??

Why? has any other band ever done that?

You could go on about Ian Browns style as a frontman. Now Ian McCulloch was pulling that too cool for skool attitude long before Ian Brown. What is so original about The Stone Roses compared to the likes of Echo and The Bunnymen?

'Style' wise Brown absolutely shits on McCulloch:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuM9_-p-4JY[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0sdNIAXH4I[/video]

I appreciate people love the Roses, I am a big fan myself. But they get the credit for apparently creating this whole Madchester scene. Were they actually as important in the grand scheme of things as Rob Gretton, New Order, A Guy Called Gerald, 808 State, The Hacienda, and probably the most important man in the whole Madchester scene Mike Pickering.

Madchester was mainly a media/press 'creation'. Explain why Mike Pickering was the most important man in the Madchester scene?

The Roses are a fantastic band with maybe 15 top quality records which are timeless. But I have heard nothing or seen anything yet to convince me that they were any kind of originators.

Maybe I did not get the Roses, I have always preferred New Order and The Mondays. I find them 2 bands truly original. But I do appreciate the Roses even if I do not believe all the hype.

Your first point on New Order and Kraftwerk. There is no mistaking New Order were influenced by Kraftwerk, Blue Monday and Your Silent face bear witness to that. But Kraftwerk did not make pop songs per see, nor use live instruments, nor did they produce rock songs. Kraftwerk were pure electro, New Order were not. Arthur Baker had as much influence if not more on New Order than Kraftwerk.

Your second point about Pollock. You are correct, I can not think of any band that directly ripped off Jackson Pollocks pictures. But John squire is a respected artist. If he was so original, why would he blatantly plagiarise somebody else's work?

Your third point about McCulloch. I did not say that Ian Brown does not shit on McCulloch in any way. I was just stating that the front man with attitude and being too cool for skool was not something Ian Brown invented. McCulloch had been doing that for years. Now I like Brown, he has made some quirky and interesting pop music on his own, but when
McCulloch was performing the cutter, Brown looked like a shit goth. Looking at the video you posted and the picture of the Roses below, does Brown really shit on McCulloch style wise?

Finally in regards to Mike Pickering. Now this is purely my own opinion on why he was the most important person with the Madchester scene. He was producing the first ever Manc house records as Quango Quango and T coy, he was integral in the introduction of the Hacienda, he played a key role in the development of the Mondays, he was the resident dj at the hac and was bringing in all the imports from America which played a key role in the development of the so called Madchester scene. Plus he was also signing so many records to deconstruction (ride on time etc) because Wilson did not have Pickerings foresight. As key men behind the so called Madchester movement you will be hard pressed to find anyone else so integral, influential and involved so much from the start of it all.

Now I can see from your name that you must obviously be a big Roses fan. I love them myself but I find the idea of people calling them original a bit bizarre when using that claim to belittle the music of Oasis.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Shout it out loud. Casual Oasis B Side never ever mentioned. It's pure brilliance from Noel.

 

[Ban-jani]

Like Oasis & they obviously did a lot more albums than the Roses but the sheer quality
of what the Roses put out, beats anything Oasis have done.