Our collective defence 2023-24

[Blue_Lightsaber]

I think this warrants a thread (of discussion rather than negativity).

We won a treble and the previous titles based on the best defense in the league.

Our record over 38 game season:

2017-18 27 GA
2018-19 23 GA
2020-21 32 GA
2021-22 26 GA
2022-23 33 GA
2023-24 23 GA (only 20 games in) - giving up more than a goal a game,

Not having a run of clean sheets in what feels forever.
Obviously we're too open at the back..

What's gone wrong? How can we fix it?
Is it personnel or it playing style?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Defence.

 

[Edghill OG]

There's been some very decent finishing against us too. The two Newcastle goals last night being a case in point. And how many times have sides scored with the only real opportunity/opportunities they get? Too many to mention. Even last night we were battering them and somehow found ourselves 2-1 down. Palace at home and letting a 2 goal lead slip still grinds my gears.

Definitely don't have the same confidence in the defence at the moment though. Seem more liable to lapses in concentration and complacency. Spent all that money on Gvardiol and stick him at LB. Don't think it improves the side at all. Looked a better player when he's played CB but I prefer Ake at LB.

 

[Saddleworth2]

There is a combination of factors I think. Players: John is our best defender and has been absent most of the season. Dias and Walker are playing below their best standards. Guardiol is new and not quite on the same wavelength yet. Individual errors have cost us goals all season. Phil, Ruben, Nathan and Akanji all involved. Whilst Phil has been brilliant at times, his style of play means we will lose the ball a little more often on the edge of the opposition area leaving us open to fast, two, three pass transitions.
Tactics: We lost Gundo - the master of control and are playing Doku quite a bit. Those player changes seem to leave our midfield open to fast transition, particularly down Doku's side. As a result, Guardiol, Ake, Rodri are being caught upfield and the defence is very stretched. Pep, for now seems to have abandoned the four CB defence in favour of pushing full backs high and wide.

Yesterday was interesting, first half, Newcastle looked dangerous every time they broke and we were lucky not to concede more. Second half we didn't really give them a sniff. How was that achieved? We controlled ball retention in the second half far more. Doku moved wider and saw and lost less of the ball. I thought Kova had a better second half than first as well.

I think it will resolve itself as new players become more and more embedded and of course the King is back.

 

[nellyonthewing]

Playing Walker and Guardiol as wide overlapping fullbacks leaves us exposed to counter attacks. Teams know that and exploit it.
It’s not like Walker or Guardiol can even cross a ball . Pep must surely see this but …….

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It’s not like Walker or Guardiol can even cross a ball . Pep must surely see this but …….

Apart from our first goal today, you mean?

 

[applejuice]

Only Gvardiol is the new addition. Defenders do not suddenly become crap.

The front and midfield changes more.

1 Some younger players duck out 50-50s here and there. It will be harsh to say they try to sneak away from defensive duties every chance. But certainly not as solid as the level we expected in the past seasons.

2 Some midfielders do not commit necessary challenge to stop the counter.

3 Front line loses cheap balls here and there when the backline is not ready into recovery positions.

4 Comparing to last season Bernado, Grealish and Rodri- the three players from Treble winning XI - often play in more advanced or more central positions than last season. So naturally they cannot help the backline as much as they did in the past.

5 The avg height of our XI is lower than last season. In Treble starting XI, only Bernado is below 180cm. This season we see a lot more regular players around 170-175 range. Nothing wrong with that. But a combination of shorter players means that we are more vulnerable at set pieces or facing long range crosses. Our player are more likely to be "an inch short" when committing a tackle.

6 Despite our very tall backline, only Rodri and Stones are real masters of headers. Stones is not avalible most of the season so far. Rodri has to push up high to fill the void of the midfield a lot.

7 Gundo can play in Rodri position occasionally. We beat MU 6-3 when Rodri was sick and out of team. This season we were terrible when Rodri was suspended.

...

Some of the reasons are consequence of current squad situation. But some of the reasons - are more about discipline. IMO the defensive discipline is at all time low point since Pep's 2nd season. Note - it is not ability - but discipline.

Some questions need to be asked.

Does the coach team emphasize discipline hard enough? Especially the assistant coach who is in charge of the defense.

Does the good defensive contribution be rewarded and the bad actions be punished properly?

Some favorite players start regularly despite some appalling defensive actions time after time. Jog back slowly and conserve the energy. After all G/A are all on the highlight and will get you a position next week. It is not just the younger players - senior players do it at times. Can you image Sterling or Mahrez doing the same thing and not being taken off (let alone start again) 2 seasons ago? They would get an earful from Ferna first.

Further more, the whole team last season all made great defensive contributions - especially in the later stage of the season. Have those actions been praised and awarded enough? We saw countless clips about Rodri's winning goal and Pep's genius mind. But how many clips about the defensive contributions of our backline, the pressing machines up front and the wingers who made a lot of sacrifice in the absence of fullbacks? Is the lower defensive moral really a surprise?

PS: Virgil van Dijk was highly praised and a key figure in all Liverpool's PR campaigns after Liverpool won 2019 CL. The defensive contributions of their midfielders and forwards, especially work rate, were also praised highly. I think that our players did no less than them but did not get enough credit. No matter how much you dislike that team, their defense was even stronger in the next season and got the PL. Their players were not as skillful as us.

 

[Gabriel]

Save for the lack of cover ahead of them, the one problem we may soon have to acknowledge and address in central defence is the lack of genuine pace. It was exposed by Leipzig and again yesterday. Our defenders are not slouches by any means, but there isn’t one central defender who is significantly quicker than the others, so we will remain vulnerable when exposed to that threat.

 

[normskih]

Playing Walker and Guardiol as wide overlapping fullbacks leaves us exposed to counter attacks. Teams know that and exploit it.
It’s not like Walker or Guardiol can even cross a ball . Pep must surely see this but …….

Very exposed. For me, Guardiol isn’t really a left back and unfortunately Walker hasn’t been playing well this season. We have had either rotation or injury between Ake, Diaz, Akanji and Stones so that can’t help. Teams seem to hit us on the counter attack by knocking balls over the top, how many times does that happen in a match? As you say they know how to play against us and unfortunately if teams have lightening quick players, they exploit us.

 

[Middedon]

I don’t know, I feel like there is a lot of overthinking on this one and it’s always so dire. I think it’s mostly, last year we had an exceptional season that was also lucky as everyone peaked together. This season, the defenders are just not playing quite as well (not at all saying they are shit! We’re talking marginal differences). Looking back, it seems like we’ve had a lot of out of character individual errors. And unfortunately they’re all happening at once. As good as one is, a little luck has to be involved with winning something like the treble. And maybe our luck has evened out a bit.

A few other things:
-This is not just a back line issue, the midfield has been unsettled and they’ve also had games with some uncharacteristic errors (even Rodri!)
-Lack of consistency on the left side to create a defensive partnership - I think having two new players on the same side with the type of style we play is difficult - not at all criticizing either of these players. Gvardiol gets a ton of crap on social media and seems to be considered a failure, but I don’t think he’s solely the issue.
-Teams know better what works against us

I don’t think pace would be an issue if we played a normal line. Our defenders may not all be speedsters, but they’re not slouches.

Also, I don’t think our attacking as been quite as good as either - also, not at all bad, just marginally not as good - and that doesn’t get mentioned nearly as frequently