Our inability to set up properly for big games

[OB1]

Do you think it's actually possible for the attacking players to 'do their bit' to the extent required in this system, & still have the requied energy to 'do their bit' at the other end though ?

I don't. They could perhaps do a bit more, but they all do from time to time. It's not like in the case of Dzeko where he would often just stand about watching. Silva makes challenges, Aguero gets himself between the cbs, they don't ver often run 60 yards back, but how often do Messi or Xavi/Iniesta, Neymar, etc do that ? Even in midfield, how effective would Thiago or Xabi Alonso be, if they had to chase Jamie Vardy on a counter attack, or even chase James Milner for that matter ? Our players are being asked to sprint back 60 yards rather than ten.

I think the case you are talking about re Ajax btw, we ridiculously had Aguero playing on the left with a space behind him, so they targeted it.

(That was one example of why the previous manager was as flawed as this one imo, along with his back 5 with totally unsuited players).

Our team consistently runs less distance than our opponents, based on every stat I can recall seeing for this so I reckon more running may be possible. Of course the whole point of the high line is so that forward players do not have to run back 60 yards on a regular basis. The idea is that players get into position to stop counter attacks at source; which is why Iniesta and co don't regularly go chasing back.

 

[Marvin]

Silva is one of the best players in the Premiership. He has an ankle injury. I cannot believe that you are trying to analyse the positive and negative parts of his game. He deserves credit for playing through the injury barrier when he'd probably be better off just resting up and getting fully fit for the Euros

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Yet again, we dominate possession, create next to nothing and get our arses smacked on the break.
It seems we've been well and truly sussed out by almost everyone.

The problem is we have been saying this for a long time but nothing is ever done to address it. And while nothing is being done our opponents seem to be actively honing the tactics that hurt us and are able to deploy them against us with increasing success. I know we have some excellent players, usually much better than those in the opposition but I reckon most managers worth their salt would quietly fancy their chances against us at the moment.

 

[Marvin]

The problem is we have been saying this for a long time but nothing is ever done to address it. And while nothing is being done our opponents seem to be actively honing the tactics that hurt us and are able to deploy them against us with increasing success. I know we have some excellent players, usually much better than those in the opposition but I reckon most managers worth their salt would quietly fancy their chances against us at the moment.

At this moment but only because we are much weakened

The injury list is crippling and I think we have a really difficult job to win many of the upcoming games, but given a full strength City team we'd be walking this league.

Sadly the only players who I think will return imminently are Kompany and Mangala.

I think pellegrini has to do something radical with the midfield. We need some quality in the centre of the pitch. Sterling running centrally would give us an alternative to our single prong Aguero threat

 

[Lancet Fluke]

At this moment but only because we are much weakened

The injury list is crippling and I think we have a really difficult job to win many of the upcoming games, but given a full strength City team we'd be walking this league.

Sadly the only players who I think will return imminently are Kompany and Mangala.

I think pellegrini has to do something radical with the midfield. We need some quality in the centre of the pitch. Sterling running centrally would give us an alternative to our single prong Aguero threat

We do have a ridiculous number of injuries, even more reason why being so open to the counter attack should have been dealt with. What manager doesn't adapt things when they have so many of their important players out? Drop the defence deeper, stiffen up the midfield and start fucking battling. With Sterling's pace and Aguero's brilliance we have more than enough to win games if we approach them differently, what we don't have at the moment is enough quality left on the pitch to think we can stroll through games thinking we are 1970 Brazil.

 

[tonea2003]

Silva is one of the best players in the Premiership. He has an ankle injury. I cannot believe that you are trying to analyse the positive and negative parts of his game. He deserves credit for playing through the injury barrier when he'd probably be better off just resting up and getting fully fit for the Euros

he is not immune from critique, even if he is one of the best players to ever pull on a blue shirt, if he ambles back whilst his counterpart is bearing down on our back 4 then that needs pulling up

 

[BobKowalski]

We do have a ridiculous number of injuries, even more reason why being so open to the counter attack should have been dealt with. What manager doesn't adapt things when they have so many of their important players out? Drop the defence deeper, stiffen up the midfield and start fucking battling. With Sterling's pace and Aguero's brilliance we have more than enough to win games if we approach them differently, what we don't have at the moment is enough quality left on the pitch to think we can stroll through games thinking we are 1970 Brazil.

Agreed. This refusal to adapt to our circumstances or even seemingly take into account the opposition is one of the biggest frustrations. On occasions Pellers is pragmatic (albeit he often apologies for it afterwards) but his favoured 'over the top and charge' approach with half his troops out injured just leaves us impaled on the barbed wire of cold reality.

 

[Walking on the blue moon]

Completely agree with this.

Go like for like, invite them on to our organised back 8 for a change and then use the pace of Sterling and Kun on the break.

We cant keep playing keep ball from left to right to left.......

What if they are contented enough to sit back too and don't remove their organised back 8? What if we concede a corner when we sit back and they score from that?

I agree that we can play deeper from time to time, perhaps against impatient teams like Spurs, but it may not be against teams like Leicester who likes to sit back. Compared with Leicester, passing is our strength and why waste our players' talent? And the passing game relies on a high defensive line, which Dax has explained very clearly, otherwise our midfield would lack support and become more vulnerable to losing the ball in our own half. The reason why this did not work on Saturday is probably our lack of final ball, which has something to do with our attacking front being static. Very often all players in the front just stood around waiting for the ball (everyone of them), and at times they tried to do too much by holding onto the ball too long (e.g. Aguero and Kelechi, Silva maybe once or twice, Sterling as well). Such lack of movement may have something to do with fitness level, so the problem does not originate from a high line of defence. For if we do have control in the match with not just the midfield but also in attack, the problem posed by the pace of Vardy could be greatly lessened.

Of course a more long-term solution to our defensive rues will be more organized pressing, but we may have to wait until Pep to get that. This may be one of Pellegrini's greater flaws, but then it is one for many attacking managers too. Having said that, I would rather want a attacking coach than a defensive one.

For now the players may have to really step up a lot. They may have to give 200% effort and make sure they don't make silly mistakes, especially in midfield. And Pellegrini may have to do a few tweaks on the tactics now, though specifically on what, I do not know. If he succeeds, it is to his credit.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Agreed. This refusal to adapt to our circumstances or even seemingly take into account the opposition is one of the biggest frustrations. On occasions Pellers is pragmatic (albeit he often apologies for it afterwards) but his favoured 'over the top and charge' approach with half his troops out injured just leaves us impaled on the barbed wire of cold reality.

Are you suggesting that Saturday was The Somme and Pellegrini was Haig? :)

 

[Neville Kneville]

Our team consistently runs less distance than our opponents, based on every stat I can recall seeing for this so I reckon more running may be possible. Of course the whole point of the high line is so that forward players do not have to run back 60 yards on a regular basis. The idea is that players get into position to stop counter attacks at source; which is why Iniesta and co don't regularly go chasing back.

I think that is why it's very difficult for us to assess who can or can't do it to the required level, in a better functioning system. I've never seen the likes of Xavi & Iniesta as being tireless grafters & Thiago certainly isn't, yet they seem to have no problem defensively in the systems they use. I was absolutely terrified by the prospect of us signing Thiago & seeing him & Yaya with Silva, in games like Saturday. But if they are only doing little defensive runs of ten yards or so, for a few seconds, it becomes a completely different game & perhaps all 3 could do it. So I really have no idea which of our players can cope with Pep's ideas, some may disappoint & some may surprise us, but I think it's plain for anyone to see right now, that the current set of players, are struggling to perform in the systems the manager is using, when we play against anyone with a bit of energy.

So will he just carry on hoping it all works out, or do something different which the players can better cope with ?

 

[OB1]

Silva is one of the best players in the Premiership. He has an ankle injury. I cannot believe that you are trying to analyse the positive and negative parts of his game. He deserves credit for playing through the injury barrier when he'd probably be better off just resting up and getting fully fit for the Euros

Why should any player be immune from analysis of their strengths and weaknesses?

You can be damn sure Pep will be looking at both things for every player he inherits. And he certainly has people on his coaching team that believe that players can still improve in their 30's.

 

[OB1]

I think that is why it's very difficult for us to assess who can or can't do it to the required level, in a better functioning system. I've never seen the likes of Xavi & Iniesta as being tireless grafters & Thiago certainly isn't, yet they seem to have no problem defensively in the systems they use. I was absolutely terrified by the prospect of us signing Thiago & seeing him & Yaya with Silva, in games like Saturday. But if they are only doing little defensive runs of ten yards or so, for a few seconds, it becomes a completely different game & perhaps all 3 could do it. So I really have no idea which of our players can cope with Pep's ideas, some may disappoint & some may surprise us, but I think it's plain for anyone to see right now, that the current set of players, are struggling to perform in the systems the manager is using, when we play against anyone with a bit of energy.

So will he just carry on hoping it all works out, or do something different which the players can better cope with ?

Assume you refer to Pellegrini. I don't see him changing his spots now but I keep hoping for him to go all pragmatic because he has shown he can do that.

 

[Phil1]

Why should any player be immune from analysis of their strengths and weaknesses?

You can be damn sure Pep will be looking at both things for every player he inherits. And he certainly has people on his coaching team that believe that players can still improve in their 30's.

Your second paragraph is partly why I get so defensive when seeing posts saying Silva will be surplus or not be able to play in a Pep team.
Most players have scope for improvement and that includes Silva. I'm desperate to see if he can add a couple of strings to his bow under a new manager.

 

[cleavers]

Assume you refer to Pellegrini. I don't see him changing his spots now but I keep hoping for him to go all pragmatic because he has shown he can do that.

I'd like to think that Saturday's inept display all over the pitch would give him some food for thought, something needs to change to ensure 3 points this weekend.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Assume you refer to Pellegrini. I don't see him changing his spots now but I keep hoping for him to go all pragmatic because he has shown he can do that.

Yeah.

I just wonder at what point he might think that we could win the title by a margin if we just go for results rather than attempting to be Brazil in every game. After all, it can hardly be the case that his job depends on us playing a certain style of football, seing as he's gone anyway.

He could line up with 5 central defenders & Joe Hart at centre forward & nobody can do anything to him. He has complete freedom to do whatever it takes, to win the title.

 

[kaz7]

Yeah.

I just wonder at what point he might think that we could win the title by a margin if we just go for results rather than attempting to be Brazil in every game. After all, it can hardly be the case that his job depends on us playing a certain style of football, seing as he's gone anyway.

He could line up with 5 central defenders & Joe Hart at centre forward & nobody can do anything to him. He has complete freedom to do whatever it takes, to win the title.

Good points and i agree he should do it but he has set himself out to play a certain way and is now in the shop window for his next job where he will be hired for his style of play so he won't change imo

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

Good points and i agree he should do it but he has set himself out to play a certain way and is now in the shop window for his next job where he will be hired for his style of play so he won't change imo

I don't find his style of play exciting and haven't done for 18m.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Good points and i agree he should do it but he has set himself out to play a certain way and is now in the shop window for his next job where he will be hired for his style of play so he won't change imo

Surely grinding out some results and genuinely challenging for the title would look better on his CV than what is happening at the moment?

 

[Neville Kneville]

Good points and i agree he should do it but he has set himself out to play a certain way and is now in the shop window for his next job where he will be hired for his style of play so he won't change imo

I fear you are probably correct, but if I was a future employer, I would be more impressed if he came up with a new plan. After all, he is unlikely to have the same talent on offer at his next club, so will most likely have to adapt anyway.

Intersting that at Chelsea, Ranieri was pretty much sacked for dicking around with fantasy football, genius manager, team formations all the time, shuffling players about in tactical weirdness, wheras at Leicester, without a plethora of quality players to pick from, he's basically got them set up like Graeme Taylor or Steve Coppel would have done 25 years ago, & they are top of the league.

 

[OB1]

Your second paragraph is partly why I get so defensive when seeing posts saying Silva will be surplus or not be able to play in a Pep team.
Most players have scope for improvement and that includes Silva. I'm desperate to see if he can add a couple of strings to his bow under a new manager.

I'm sure he can play in a Pep team if he wants it enough. I think he could be our Iniesta or Xavi.

Saw a rumour yesterday linking us with Busquets; might be wishful thinking but I said after we played them last time that, never mind Messi, if you put Busquests, Alves and Alba into our side, the difference would be huge.