Our inability to set up properly for big games

[Dax777]

you must watch a different game to me,

That may be true. Most watch it under high emotion once. And then let the discussion afterwards shape their experience of what they saw.

I watch at least 3 times. Once on high emotion. A second with rewind and pauses and calm focus on the game. And just for good measure, I watch the tactical cam version. Just so I can shut up the ' I was at the stadium and you didn't see what I saw' folks.

But yeah, my view tends not to be in step with the general view. I believe this is partly because I enjoy the weeds a little more than most. And I'm.not that big on generalization.

Or better yet, I could just be a know fuck all pompous arse. At least that's what a few have said :)

 

[Craig]

He's absolutely clueless and I just hope his ineptitude doesn't cost us 4th. His options weren't great on Saturday admittedly but he still managed to get everything completely wrong like he so often does.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I'd like to see how Guardiola would do with the players Pellegrini had at his disposal yesterday.

yes, we'd all do things a bit differently, but the overwhelming reason for the poor performances is down to the missing players.

I'm not sure he would have put Martin up against Vardy mate. kolorov vs Clichy might have gone a different way as well. The other major difference, is he would have had plan a,b,c,d....ready for those players and they would have been coached to execute them efficiently. So although it's true that we are suffering badly from injuries, I do think Pep would make a better fist of it than Pellers is doing.

 

[Deleted member 58678]

Mp,he is going soon anyway so i can't be bothered sweating it as he won't change

He's not going soon whatsoever.

Next season is a whole seven months away, it doesn't exist yet. And between now and then we are in the FL Cup final, the FA Cup, the CL Ro16 against one of the worst teams left in the competition, and a title race to go for. This season. Not next. THIS!

But this manager of ours is showing himself up that he doesn't work hard enough on the defensive side or the preparation of the team depending on what opposition we're playing. And THIS season, if that carries on, we'll win nothing despite us having the best team in the league and the only other really decent team in this league being in the bottom half.

The league title is there for the taking for whoever really wants it. It's there for whichever manager works hard enough at his job and this manager we've got doesn't do that so THIS season we might well end up winning absolutely nothing yet again making it that we've won just two trophies in four seasons (nowt like Soriano's "five trophies and five years" demand!).

This season is very real. My £800 SeasonCard, my £40odd quid CL ticket, my £140 ticket+travel to Wembley is all very real right now and I'll be fucked if I'm just going to sit back, pay all that and think "oh well, in seven months someone else will be in charge". Fuck that shit!

This season's manger need to fucking improve and sharpish or maybe it would be good if he could be gone soon, very soon, as in NOW!

 

[Dax777]

You obviously watched a different game to me.

We were losing the battle in midfield and both in their respective roles were offering us nothing to get back into the game.

You have to make changes be they tactical , positional or with personnel when you are behind and struggling to create clear cut chances especially if half your central midfield is running on empty.

Possession means nothing when its ineffectual.

After the subs we at least held our own without ever threatening still scant consolation though.

The best chances fell to Leicester and while Joe did his job and little more at least it wasn't 7-1.

Again, you are being general. I'm watching the game as we chat here. Perhaps for the 4th time
Don't see much of anything you've claimed. Yaya and Ferny looked pretty good.

I can give you an every five minute summary. We were looking good. Can tell you who made mistakes on each and every counter they had.

Who lost us the ball on our good restarts. Who lost our momentum with a bad pass etc.

Here is a clue. It wasn't the central midfielders.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Clearly. But we have a scapegoating mentality on bluemoon.

Take the last game for example: High line vs Vardy. Folks fail to point out Vardy didn't score. So what's the point of whinning about something that didn't change the outcome.

Worse still is the porous analysis. Leicester, counter attacks. We play possession. So by nature of the game, we will control possession. Unless folks are asking we hold the possession in our half, I really don't get the point of the whinning :?

Once in possession, we have to move up and down the field as a unit, or we are bound to leave huge gapa BTW offense and defense. So the high line is simply pro forma. Against a team defending with 8 men, we are bound to add more players on attack to help out. I.e the Fullbacks. It's key though that our players hustle back when we lose possession. It is here we failed. Yaya, Silva and Delph all failed miserably at it. Albeit, Yaya got the flack.

It is imperative that our CBs win most of their one v ones on counters. If they can't then we need better tacklers. Our defense is highly dependent on possession. And that wouldn't change under Pep. High line coupled with possession is the fulcrum of our good defending. So whinning about the high line is just silly. A poor understanding of what we are trying to do.

2nd Complaint, Delph on the left. Anyone who didn't get why this was the case, simply needs to retire from analysis discussions. You can disagree with it, but to not understand it is beyond silly. One word, Mahrez!!! It's an understandable choice.

Player put forward and tactics were not the issue. Player performances were.

Let me get into some details here:

So first goal: Simple set piece, outside out box, Huth beat Dimechelis. That's just not on the coach. The tactic was right, CD on CD, big on big. Man-up defenae on dead ball situation. Tactics was right, personnel was correct. Dimechelis just lost the battle. How Pellars is implicated in that is beyond me.

2nd goal: In possession, Silva losses the ball, but shows no hustle to get back(individual error 1), Kante beats Zab (Not an error, but shows he was in play but lost the individual battle), Ota goes to ground (individual error here, Simply should have rode Machete rather than attempt winning the ball. Error 2), Delph, who often gets on everyone's 'hustle' starting team sheet, AGAIN commits the error everyone tends to blame Yaya on. Once we lost possession, Mahrez started a cross field run past Delph, who just stands there transfixed. I mean he got a start for the singular purpose of helping slow down Mahrez. Worst error on the play in my opinion. Had he tracked Mahrez like he should have the play would have died on Otamend's slide and a Delph ball recovery.

By the way, Dimechelis and Kolarov were both in great defending positions. But Mahrez was simply better 1v1. Probably the best in the league right now.

3rd Goal like the first was simply Huth having a ball. Beating Demichelis again.

So when I say our errors are simply individual rather than tactical, this is what I mean.

I can delve into more run of the mill plays that were successful but didn't lead to goals, and general stuff. But that goes into weeds moat aren't interested in.

Some interesting stuff there Dax.
First goal, the ball in from Mahrez was not well defended. There was a huge gap with no one positioned to block that Huth attacked and it was immediately a 1on1 which we lost. Better defensive set up would have made that far more difficult to score.
Second goal, I agree with your analysis. I watched carefully the significant difference in intensity between the two teams transition play. Leicester invariably, at full pace, in numbers. We were noticeably slower, sometimes literally jogging back with no intensity, something you highlight with Delph. Is that the players fault or is it something that could have been and should have been addressed by coaching. Are our players really just lazy- do they train at intensity and then suddenly change to lazy buggers for a big game. No, I don't think so.
Third goal, agree, it's another 1on1 battle lost.

You didn't say anything in your analyis about our attacking play. Have a good look at that and see how easy we were to play against. Watch Leicester completely dominate the space we are attacking with superior numbers. Look at how slowly we developed the attack, backwards, sideways, sideways backwards in a u shape. Leicester didn't have to defend that cleverly for most of the time, they simply kept their shape and moved from side to side closing down the space we were attacking. There superior numbers, invariably 4 or 5 vs 3 were why they were able to recover the ball so many times and launch counter attacks. So is that the fault of the players or is it how we are set up and coached to play?

Mate, I get your argument about players performance but I still think a lot of what is wrong is down to a lack of variety and intensity in coaching and set up and a lack of a plan b,c or d from Pellers when things don't work. Of course injuries are hurting us but an elite coach would be getting more from what is available IMO.

 

[r.soleofsalford]

That may be true. Most watch it under high emotion once. And then let the discussion afterwards shape their experience of what they saw.

I watch at least 3 times. Once on high emotion. A second with rewind and pauses and calm focus on the game. And just for good measure, I watch the tactical cam version. Just so I can shut up the ' I was at the stadium and you didn't see what I saw' folks.

But yeah, my view tends not to be in step with the general view. I believe this is partly because I enjoy the weeds a little more than most. And I'm.not that big on generalization.

Or better yet, I could just be a know fuck all pompous arse. At least that's what a few have said :)

dax777, In all honesty mate youre not the only one who has a record button and the time to watch the games however many times you like.


Was i pissed off during and after the game, yes i was, have i watched and recorded it again, yes i certainly have. The thing is mate i was pissed off when Demichelis was picked to play against the fastest and liveliest counter attacking team in the prem instead of Sagna. i was pissed off when the defensively naive and cumbersome Kolarov was picked instead of the faster more defensively sound Clichy. I got pissed off because i thought they were both criminally poor decisions that would come back and bit us on the arse which of course they did. I get pissed off when i see a defensive midfield two of Yaya and a.n. other, which because of yaya`s inability or attitude cant or wont pick up runners in midfield allowing our defense to be swamped.

I`m not pissed off with Yaya he has been brilliant for us I`m not pissed off with Demichelis and his lack of pace, he has been a good servant to our club. I am pissed off at team selection not allowing us to play to our best.

 

[cleavers]

Clearly. But we have a scapegoating mentality on bluemoon.

Take the last game for example: High line vs Vardy. Folks fail to point out Vardy didn't score. So what's the point of whinning about something that didn't change the outcome.

Worse still is the porous analysis. Leicester, counter attacks. We play possession. So by nature of the game, we will control possession. Unless folks are asking we hold the possession in our half, I really don't get the point of the whinning :?

Once in possession, we have to move up and down the field as a unit, or we are bound to leave huge gapa BTW offense and defense. So the high line is simply pro forma. Against a team defending with 8 men, we are bound to add more players on attack to help out. I.e the Fullbacks. It's key though that our players hustle back when we lose possession. It is here we failed. Yaya, Silva and Delph all failed miserably at it. Albeit, Yaya got the flack.

It is imperative that our CBs win most of their one v ones on counters. If they can't then we need better tacklers. Our defense is highly dependent on possession. And that wouldn't change under Pep. High line coupled with possession is the fulcrum of our good defending. So whinning about the high line is just silly. A poor understanding of what we are trying to do.

2nd Complaint, Delph on the left. Anyone who didn't get why this was the case, simply needs to retire from analysis discussions. You can disagree with it, but to not understand it is beyond silly. One word, Mahrez!!! It's an understandable choice.

Player put forward and tactics were not the issue. Player performances were.

Let me get into some details here:

So first goal: Simple set piece, outside out box, Huth beat Dimechelis. That's just not on the coach. The tactic was right, CD on CD, big on big. Man-up defenae on dead ball situation. Tactics was right, personnel was correct. Dimechelis just lost the battle. How Pellars is implicated in that is beyond me.

2nd goal: In possession, Silva losses the ball, but shows no hustle to get back(individual error 1), Kante beats Zab (Not an error, but shows he was in play but lost the individual battle), Ota goes to ground (individual error here, Simply should have rode Machete rather than attempt winning the ball. Error 2), Delph, who often gets on everyone's 'hustle' starting team sheet, AGAIN commits the error everyone tends to blame Yaya on. Once we lost possession, Mahrez started a cross field run past Delph, who just stands there transfixed. I mean he got a start for the singular purpose of helping slow down Mahrez. Worst error on the play in my opinion. Had he tracked Mahrez like he should have the play would have died on Otamend's slide and a Delph ball recovery.

By the way, Dimechelis and Kolarov were both in great defending positions. But Mahrez was simply better 1v1. Probably the best in the league right now.

3rd Goal like the first was simply Huth having a ball. Beating Demichelis again.

So when I say our errors are simply individual rather than tactical, this is what I mean.

I can delve into more run of the mill plays that were successful but didn't lead to goals, and general stuff. But that goes into weeds moat aren't interested in.

Some interesting stuff there Dax.
First goal, the ball in from Mahrez was not well defended. There was a huge gap with no one positioned to block that Huth attacked and it was immediately a 1on1 which we lost. Better defensive set up would have made that far more difficult to score.
Second goal, I agree with your analysis. I watched carefully the significant difference in intensity between the two teams transition play. Leicester invariably, at full pace, in numbers. We were noticeably slower, sometimes literally jogging back with no intensity, something you highlight with Delph. Is that the players fault or is it something that could have been and should have been addressed by coaching. Are our players really just lazy- do they train at intensity and then suddenly change to lazy buggers for a big game. No, I don't think so.
Third goal, agree, it's another 1on1 battle lost.

You didn't say anything in your analyis about our attacking play. Have a good look at that and see how easy we were to play against. Watch Leicester completely dominate the space we are attacking with superior numbers. Look at how slowly we developed the attack, backwards, sideways, sideways backwards in a u shape. Leicester didn't have to defend that cleverly for most of the time, they simply kept their shape and moved from side to side closing down the space we were attacking. There superior numbers, invariably 4 or 5 vs 3 were why they were able to recover the ball so many times and launch counter attacks. So is that the fault of the players or is it how we are set up and coached to play?

Mate, I get your argument about players performance but I still think a lot of what is wrong is down to a lack of variety and intensity in coaching and set up and a lack of a plan b,c or d from Pellers when things don't work. Of course injuries are hurting us but an elite coach would be getting more from what is available IMO.

Some good points in both these posts.

I haven't seen the first goal, so can't really comment, apart from we are often poor defending free kicks, and give free chances away too often. The second goal was pathetic for all the reasons described, though for me Otamendi going to ground was the biggest error, and less than a minute earlier he'd done the same thing and they nearly scored, two attempts at a challenge, that wouldn't have looked out of place on the Sunday park between two pub teams.

I made the point on Saturday, how every time we attacked Leicester they had 8 or 9 players in their box, and all knew what they were doing, whilst we rarely had more than three attackers in their box. Every time they attacked us we had 4 or 5 back defending, often against 4 or 5 attackers, its little wonder with these numbers that they looked far more likely to score, and did score. Other than our late goal, we only had 2 notable chances, if you ignore blocks a few feet away from the shot.

We were very poor for me, defensively from front to back, and only improved defensively when Kelechi and Bersant came on, who both worked properly, and gave us some energy. Attacking wise we've morphed into Arsenal of 3 or 4 years ago, constantly trying to slowly walk the ball through a packed defence, and often looking clueless when, after 20 passes, we lose the ball easily, and then come under a counter attack, with half our team in the wrong half, for most of the game we literally had no midfield.

 

[tonea2003]

Again, you are being general. I'm watching the game as we chat here. Perhaps for the 4th time
Don't see much of anything you've claimed. Yaya and Ferny looked pretty good.

I can give you an every five minute summary. We were looking good. Can tell you who made mistakes on each and every counter they had.

Who lost us the ball on our good restarts. Who lost our momentum with a bad pass etc.

Here is a clue. It wasn't the central midfielders.

could it be a certain serbian by any chance?

also mate read most of your posts in this thread, interesting to say the least, you make it sound we were unlucky to lose, which is certainly not my take on it, we looked vulnerable with virtually every Leicester attack and not many oohs or aaaahs from us.
we have failed in virtually every big game bar chelsea at home in the league(which now seems a red herring)
i like your positivity but the results don't back it up

 

[Dax777]

dax777, In all honesty mate youre not the only one who has a record button and the time to watch the games however many times you like.


Was i pissed off during and after the game, yes i was, have i watched and recorded it again, yes i certainly have. The thing is mate i was pissed off when Demichelis was picked to play against the fastest and liveliest counter attacking team in the prem instead of Sagna. i was pissed off when the defensively naive and cumbersome Kolarov was picked instead of the faster more defensively sound Clichy. I got pissed off because i thought they were both criminally poor decisions that would come back and bit us on the arse which of course they did. I get pissed off when i see a defensive midfield two of Yaya and a.n. other, which because of yaya`s inability or attitude cant or wont pick up runners in midfield allowing our defense to be swamped.

I`m not pissed off with Yaya he has been brilliant for us I`m not pissed off with Demichelis and his lack of pace, he has been a good servant to our club. I am pissed off at team selection not allowing us to play to our best.

If you hold a position before hand, off course during the course of the whole game, you'd find instances that support your position.

I watch it try to, with an impartial mind. I don't presume any one thing is good or bad. For what it's worth, Kolarov was pretty good defensively. It was Zab that was the weaker defensive fullback, yet every moan has been about Kolarov and not Zab.

Which says the obvious. The moan was gonna happen regardless of the facts. Zaba had a worse time defensively but I am yet to read anyone suggest Sagna should have started over Zab. Yet every one points to Clichy over Kolarov, even though Kolarov was often positionally superior