Pensions and Pensioners

[mosssideblue]

Can't this be merged with the FOC thread?

Why

 

[Ste68]

We already have the lowest state pension in the Western world .... surely to god you dont want it to get any lower?

Think if it’s based on state pension it’s worse out of G7 but in Europe there are 20 or so countries who are worse. If you are living on the state pension alone agree it needs to be improved but the overall position for pensioners is different when you recognise the private and workplace pensions plus state combined. That ranks us about 12th in the world. It’s complex and any debate emotive. Just think with the tax breaks to build up workplace and private pensions those who do well out of that should perhaps not expect to gain the full state pension on top ( I know some will lose it back through higher rates of tax). It’s that or do we look at the pension tax breaks and limit them. We can’t keep taxing those in work to such an extent they are unable to meet the cost of living let alone set up a pension. Most household wealth is held in property and pensions (75 percent) , most of it by the older generation and most of it in the south east. Having allowed this to happen it is going to be difficult to redistribute that fairly whether it’s to less well off pensioners or alleviating the tax burden on those in work.

 

[dickie davies]

A Brit walks down the street, comes up on a nice house with a garden and a nice motor in the driveway and waves a fist, saying, “That fucker! Look at that house and car! How many people must he have fucked over to get that, the bastard?!”

I see a lovely big house and say "I bet that costs a fucking fortune to heat and the council tax must be mad"

 

[Palerider]

It can only be paid for by today's tax payer because when it came in how would you have given it to people?

You dont pay for your education and health until you're say 18 through tax, does the govt ask for that money back? Are you in deficit with them? No the adult population chip in for you. Why am i paying for other peoples kids education?. Its impossible to do it any other way. We contribute to a welfare state.
The simple fact is we don't create enough wealth to do everything we want to do or we dont spend it wisely.
Strange how other countries pay more pension.
Our politicians do okay with their pension paid for by us though, they even have cheaper ale, but yeah let's turn on each other because Old John can afford a pint or a holiday and isnt sitting at home with a jumper and coat on.

Well it makes sense for 1948, but surely it's some sort of pyramid scheme where if something unforeseen happens we are screwed? i.e average lifespan in 1948 was around 66, average lifespan in 2026 is 82. In our case the increase in lifespan was predictable and, as a country, we should have reacted much, much earlier to the change of circumstances. As increasing tax rates is unlikely to win you an election perhaps the management of funding the state pension should be taken out of the politicians hands and given to an independent financial body.

 

[BlueNomad]

Nice try but it fell apart at the american dream part, may as well have quoted Norman Tebbit.

If you don’t like that widely used catch all term for the idea, choose a different one, but don’t throw out an overarching idea over a phrase.

 

[BlueNomad]

I see a lovely big house and say "I bet that costs a fucking fortune to heat and the council tax must be mad"

I didn’t even say big, you created that image. Size isn’t important, it is quality, cost, desirability.

;-)

But, I hear you. I pay $1,250/month (£1,000) just in property tax. I think it’s obscene, but I’m screaming into the abyss. Pay it or live elsewhere!

 

[BlueNomad]

Can't this be merged with the FOC thread?

Or, more reasonably, the “FYC with no experience of sacrificing for their entire work life for what they receive today” thread???

 

[Saddleworth2]

Agree splitting out National insurance from general taxation when it all lands in the same pot nationally is really a bit of smoke and mirrors but allows a little political flexibility for governments to spin masking the true tax burden and maintains the idea or perception of a contributory principle being in play for pensions and other benefits. Truth the tax system needs an overhaul along with pensions. Inevitably I think will mean a form of means testing and minimum income guarantee set at a fair level that’s sustainable. Think we have a full state pension, if you get it all that is above average living costs but does not leave much for anything else (think we were in the top performers in the European pension index just). There are very few generous state pensions anywhere in Europe apart from Norway and Luxembourg - most aim to just cover living costs and no more.

• Iceland: €35,959 (£30,251)
• Luxembourg: €31,835 (£26,778)
• Norway: €30,879 (£25,972)
• Denmark: €30,211 (£25,410)
• Switzerland: €27,010 (22,719
• Austria: €24,349 (£20,480)
• Netherlands: €24,092 (£20,264)
• Belgium: €22,577 (£19,000)
• Sweden: €22,436 (£18,882)
• Ireland: €21,766 (£18,318)

Quite a few better than ours mate. Difficult to compare because the cost of living and tax burden in tose countries also vary but...

 

[BlueNomad]

But we’ve got more billionaires, so that’s alright…

The billionaires aren’t the problem. Until you see that, you will never find the answer.

 

[Blue Maverick]

This is so true, people complain about Triple Lock & its cost if there was a decent pension in the first place there would be no need for Triple locks.
I don’t here many complaints about public employees gold plated final salary pensions, surely they are not sustainable.

How many times do I have to say this final salary pensions don’t exist anymore unless you are very near pension age, and even then they are split pensions, they were changed in 2012. Also they pay into those pensions in some cases at least double the amount of private sector pensions.

 

[Blue Maverick]

The British disease is “something for nothing, and I want my share,” coupled with “it’s not fair that that guy worked hard to make so much money, so we need to take it away and give it to us.” Throw in a bit of “no, you can’t build that there” and you have a perfect recipe for a lack of affordability and class warfare, with a healthy dose of victim mentality.

A brilliant foundation for a successful society!

Answers?

Required apprenticeships for non-university students. Tax breaks for those companies who take them on.
2 years of National service at 18, deferrable until 22 if still in the education pipeline.
No income tax on the first £21,000, but 33% if it has to be put directly into an ISA-type retirement account.
Greater threshold for disability, including mental health.
No benefits to non-citizens, with a 5 yr delay for naturalized citizens.
1% down payment for first home home owners and no income tax on the first £10,400 of annual home mortgage payments.
Fixed rate mortgages required for minimum of first 5 years of mortgages, extendable if mortgage rates rise above current payment rate, with govt-mandated maximum mortgage rates for first-time buyer.

Britain has to relieve the working poor of the over-inflated basic costs of living, which helps relieve the state of a growing benefit culture, while concurrently making it almost impossible to actually “live” on the benefits bandwagon for the able-bodied.

The country needs a sea change in mentality, but the victimhood and whataboutism is epidemic and may be too ingrained in consecutive generations engaged in class warfare. It’s the basic reason Reform, more correctly called The Grievance Culture Party, are growing so rapidly…but the reckoning will end in tears.

I’ve told the tale a thousand times…

A Brit walks down the street, comes up on a nice house with a garden and a nice motor in the driveway and waves a fist, saying, “That fucker! Look at that house and car! How many people must he have fucked over to get that, the bastard?!”

The American walks down the same street, comes upon the same scene, and says, “See that? I’m going to have that when I grow up!”

While it may be said that in 2026, the American Dream is harder to achieve, but still very achievable, there is absolutely no question that the British Disease is growing and spreading, like a malignancy that is going to kill the host.

Good luck solving the pension problem…it’s the least of your worries!

I saw an interview with Davy Jones of The Monkees way back in the 80s and it always stuck with me, he was asked why he didn’t live in the UK, his reply, if I pull up in a Ferrari in the USA people will say nice car and congrats, in the UK they’d scratch it!

 

[abu13]

There is no issue for the country to pay everyone a good state pension. The problem that we have is crippling debt repayments and a benefits system that is out of control. No political party has the will to make the hard decisions required as they know lots if the policies that would need to change will impact them directly.
Politicians have no grasp on normal working peoples lives.

 

[Blue Maverick]

The billionaires aren’t the problem. Until you see that, you will never find the answer.

Allowing them to be billionaires is the problem, there is no need.

 

[hilts]

If you don’t like that widely used catch all term for the idea, choose a different one, but don’t throw out an overarching idea over a phrase.

I wouldn't want to be poor in America, last thing this country needs is capitalism on steroids.

 

[hilts]

Well it makes sense for 1948, but surely it's some sort of pyramid scheme where if something unforeseen happens we are screwed? i.e average lifespan in 1948 was around 66, average lifespan in 2026 is 82. In our case the increase in lifespan was predictable and, as a country, we should have reacted much, much earlier to the change of circumstances. As increasing tax rates is unlikely to win you an election perhaps the management of funding the state pension should be taken out of the politicians hands and given to an independent financial body.

Replacing or means testing the state pension won't win an election. If anyone wishes a new system for 40 years time so school leavers can start fresh thats fine, the paying for it is always the problem.

 

[abu13]

The billionaires aren’t the problem. Until you see that, you will never find the answer.

Quite right,

I read that 60% of the income tax raised in the country is paid by just 10% of the tax payers.

Like 10 people going out for a meal costing £500 and the wealthy guy puts in £300 while the other 9 moan and argue about him not paying his fair share.

 

[Don Karleone]

I wouldn't want to be poor in America, last thing this country needs is capitalism on steroids.

Being poor in this country isn't much better. You still have cunts on here punching down.

 

[WRicko]

The majority of current pensioners have paid significant amounts in both taxes and NI. Compare what they draw in State Pension to the unmarried single mothers who have never worked, contributed nothing. I lose all compassion when I see them pushing their child around whilst vaping and looking at their high-end phones.

Someone rang in the other day and pointed out that current pensioners worked during a time when wages where about 20 25k a year so tax was something like 1000 a year but they are taking out about 12,000 a year in state pension.

 

[abu13]

Just wait until AI decimates the job market, less income tax and more people on benefits. The future looks very bleak,

 

[WRicko]

We already have the lowest state pension in the Western world .... surely to god you dont want it to get any lower?

The country is already broke and the current generation are struggling and paying for the older richer generations surely you don’t want it to get worse ?