FromPollockToSilva
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Chelsea had already fully retreated and ceded all notion of attacking by that point. Fernandinho may have helped from the start, but he didn't really impact the game at all when he came on. No one in our team did
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Pep Guardiola - 2020/21 Performances
- Thread starter Bobby Heaton Moor
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Chelsea had already fully retreated and ceded all notion of attacking by that point. Fernandinho may have helped from the start, but he didn't really impact the game at all when he came on. No one in our team did
Mr. Wednesday
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I do actually largely agree with you and Saddleworth. The players have to own the loss and their performance too. Chelsea are a difficult matchup for City regardless. Some didn't handle the occasion too well but that's normal and understandable, for every one of them it was their first time in the final.I think he was right to try and tweak things and the fact that it didn't work doesn't means that he will have to try something different again next season when we play Chelsea. I don't believe Pep's changes are what led though to our players under performing: that is on each one of them individually and I say that not to blame anyone, it is what it is.
City have to lick their wounds and come back stronger next season in every way.
But there is a developing pattern where Pep tweaks things from the norm in these Champions League games and the team performance is lacking. I'm looking at the performances in particular, not the results themselves. So is it Pep, the players or just the opposition? Probably a bit of everything but my view is that when involved in matches of this magnitude it probably isnt the time to play around with things. When all of the players are pretty much below par then it's something to consider.
I think it's an interesting thing to discuss but I'll try to look ahead now.
Ah, that obsession with fairness would explain why, on the biggest night of Fern’s career, he axed him in favour of that shell of a footballer called Sterling.
I think Pep likes Ferna (and probably Rodri) much more than Sterling, but decided that Sterling's pace may be important against their system (which is different than Dortmund's and PSG's). Didn't work though.
For me, our biggest problem was that Chelsea could play through our press. Our high pressing wasn't as effective as Pep hoped. Was it because Chelsea had 3 CBs, 2 WBs and 2 DMs? I don't know, but our pressing didn't work sufficiently well. Would our formation against PSG have served us better vs Chelsea than the one Pep used? Ironically, our best performance against Chelsea was at the Etihad with 9 changes from the game with PSG and a crazy formation with just one proper midfielder in Rodri.
The most interesting aspect for me is whether our high pressing didn't work because of individual performances (Sterling, Mahrez, Bernardo, Gundo...) or because Tuchel's system is generally very effective against high pressing. Maybe Pep underestimated their ability to play from the back? Maybe we needed our best pressing forward in Jesus for this game instead of Sterling. Nobody can be sure about the answers. Pep should see that our high-pressing style is vulnerable against particular systems and find solutions next season.
OB1
Well-Known Member
Yup, wouldn’t disagree, although the intensity of that Chelsea press would have still made for a very tough task even if everyone had brought their ‘A’ game. They blitzed our 1st team with the same efficiency as they blitzed our 2nd team and we created next to nothing in any of our 3 meetings with them. It’s rare that we’re ever going to face a team like that, which might make it an extravagance in the current climate for us to spend a fortune on a proper bully of a striker, but if we want to win the CL I think we’re going to have to
We need a new striker so let's get the best prospect out there and make sure the team gives him the ammo.
paulsimpson
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Absolutely . At least match Chelsea in shape . If it ends 0- 0 so be it . Being defensive/ Not getting beat has to be in the mindset just as much attacking /wanting to win. Give the players a platform with the counter attacking teams.I don't think any system would have helped much given how far off their best all the performances of our players were individually and I certainly don't believe that the system caused the players to under perform.
That said, I do think the system was off and I am now more convinced than ever that we should have matched their shape and played against type in some ways. However, I understand why Pep finds that very hard to do but by going there, he could really prove himself to be the greatest.
He's had the team play in all sorts of ways (all variations on a theme) so I believe he can afford to drill them on playing very defensively and countering. Also on using Ederson's long ball ability. All that would be aided by being able to stick Conan The Barbarian upfront. I'm worried though that the latter is an opportunity City won't take. We have a fantastic operation on the whole but I have said over and over again that we are not ruthless enough in the transfer market; if we had been, we'd have gone and signed Kante from Leicester. It's one thing, I think we could learn from Chelsea.
I don't think any system would have helped much given how far off their best all the performances of our players were individually and I certainly don't believe that the system caused the players to under perform.
Took the team 3 months to learn this season's system
Pep should know better, experimenting in CL always leads to the same conclusion: exit of CL (unless you got Messi and luck on your side)
samarasra
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I think the absence of the comfort and confidence in the system that won us the PL had a very unsettling effect on the players. Our defence were unsettled, why ?, they missed the extra man in Rodri or Ferna. Our midfield had huge gaps, didn't link with defence or attack and our attack were swamped. Brian Kerr said on seeing the selection that Tuchel must have thought it was Christmas. I think if the team had Rodri or Ferna and Pep had said, "this is how we won the PL, let's be ourselves one more game" it could have been so much different, watching it a second time painfully enhances that feeling for me. Every percentage we dropped Chelsea rose by, I admire Pep for his attempt to pull a stroke but without our balanced and controlled structure I think we allowed Chelsea to take the initiative and paid dearly.I don't think any system would have helped much given how far off their best all the performances of our players were individually and I certainly don't believe that the system caused the players to under perform.
That said, I do think the system was off and I am now more convinced than ever that we should have matched their shape and played against type in some ways. However, I understand why Pep finds that very hard to do but by going there, he could really prove himself to be the greatest.
He's had the team play in all sorts of ways (all variations on a theme) so I believe he can afford to drill them on playing very defensively and countering. Also on using Ederson's long ball ability. All that would be aided by being able to stick Conan The Barbarian upfront. I'm worried though that the latter is an opportunity City won't take. We have a fantastic operation on the whole but I have said over and over again that we are not ruthless enough in the transfer market; if we had been, we'd have gone and signed Kante from Leicester. It's one thing, I think we could learn from Chelsea.
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ChicagoBlue
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Pep failed. It’s simple, it’s understood by all. It’s not even that hard to see.
Look at the matchups all over the park. In fact, just look at 2 of them, and it will tell you everything you need to know:
He picked Sterling on the left wing and Mahrez on the right wing. He told them to hug the touchline to open up the Chelsea back 5 and create space for at least 2 of our 4 other midfielders to make the runs through, as false nines. SOUNDS GREAT!
Oh yeah, I forgot…the other team has decent fullbacks, who not only know how to defend, but get forward, and those midfielders are running into 3 CBs who have let in just 4 goals since Tuchel arrived!
Now, Tuchel tells his FBs “Get up their arse! Don’t give them a second on the ball.” to nullify the wide threat. Chilwell does this and commits 3 or 4 fouls in quick succession against Mahrez, but nothing is done by the ref to stop it. However, Mahrez now knows he doesn’t have a second to play on the ball…Chilwell has already won that battle and Mahrez is anonymous on the wing for the rest of the game!
On our left wing, we have Sterling, a player who has never met a wall he won’t run into. In Reese James, he found another one, and didn’t have to run far, because RJ was up him like a tampon! Sterling, not known for his close control, was then effectively nullified as an attacking threat.
Now, you have FOUR MIDFIELDERS trying to attack space with no ball, because it is probably never coming in from Mahrez or Sterling!
Attacking threat ALMOST completely nullified, unless we can get someone around on the overlap or under lap. Well, that means Walker, because we know Zin has been told to come inside and play as a utility midfielder without the ball. And, if Mahrez had got on the end of a cross it might have LOOKED like it worked!
The problem, of course, was the BEHIND THAT ATTACKING 6, the back four was being run ragged and pulled all over the place by the “can’t shoot straight” Werner, who was making big holes for Mount and Havertz to get forward.
Oh look...3 of the back 4 now playing RB, except that oh so not pacy Zinchenko, who is trying to play offside (even though he can see one of the CBs is playing Havertz on!) or simply no match for the pacy Havertz and the glaringly obvious trap is sprung!
It is not even a surprise because it is Chelsea’s stock in trade!
They do a few things exceedingly well:
1) Their 5/3 knows when to go and when to stay.
2) Their 2 DMs know when to hold and when to push
3) Their lone striker knows when to come short, go long, or peel off into the corners for the space OR the ball (because he knows his job isn’t just to score it is also to make space for the next wave!)
4) Their 2 AMs (Mount, Havertz, Pulisuc…) know where spaces are being created and exploit them.
5) They know that as soon as they lose the ball there is only 1 imperative (learned from Pep), win it back immediately with the press or drop into the 5-4-1 that will win it back in your own third!
Lather, rinse, repeat!
Now, how can I see and know these things from watching half a dozen Chelsea games and especially the previous 2 games against us?
How can I know their preferred formation is 5-2-2-1/3-4-2-1/3-2-4-1/3-2-5 but none of the coaches know this?
How can I see that the SIX MIDFIELDERS (including 2 “wingers” who couldn’t defend their way out of a wet paper bag!) was no match for their 5-2 at the back, let alone their 5-4 after we had passed it around at the back for a minute or two?
I’ll give Pep one thing: Tuchel has built a team formation that is fit for purpose, with the about 13-14 players that can execute it. Beyond that core group, he struggles and needs reinforcements. However, his preferred starting line up is the strongest (physically and formationally) in the League.
Against that backdrop, Peo had to pick a few key areas where we could go Mano a Mano and beat them. Sterling vs Reese James was NOT it! Kante & Jorginho against Gundo & Zin was not it!
Pep failed the team. He failed Fernandinho. He failed Rodri. He failed KDB. In fact, he has flogged the best midfielder in the world TO DEATH this season, and all because we don’t have a fucking centre forward who can play centre forward, because Pep doesn’t like a centre forward who runs less than his most active midfielder. It’s fucking criminal!
Look at the matchups all over the park. In fact, just look at 2 of them, and it will tell you everything you need to know:
He picked Sterling on the left wing and Mahrez on the right wing. He told them to hug the touchline to open up the Chelsea back 5 and create space for at least 2 of our 4 other midfielders to make the runs through, as false nines. SOUNDS GREAT!
Oh yeah, I forgot…the other team has decent fullbacks, who not only know how to defend, but get forward, and those midfielders are running into 3 CBs who have let in just 4 goals since Tuchel arrived!
Now, Tuchel tells his FBs “Get up their arse! Don’t give them a second on the ball.” to nullify the wide threat. Chilwell does this and commits 3 or 4 fouls in quick succession against Mahrez, but nothing is done by the ref to stop it. However, Mahrez now knows he doesn’t have a second to play on the ball…Chilwell has already won that battle and Mahrez is anonymous on the wing for the rest of the game!
On our left wing, we have Sterling, a player who has never met a wall he won’t run into. In Reese James, he found another one, and didn’t have to run far, because RJ was up him like a tampon! Sterling, not known for his close control, was then effectively nullified as an attacking threat.
Now, you have FOUR MIDFIELDERS trying to attack space with no ball, because it is probably never coming in from Mahrez or Sterling!
Attacking threat ALMOST completely nullified, unless we can get someone around on the overlap or under lap. Well, that means Walker, because we know Zin has been told to come inside and play as a utility midfielder without the ball. And, if Mahrez had got on the end of a cross it might have LOOKED like it worked!
The problem, of course, was the BEHIND THAT ATTACKING 6, the back four was being run ragged and pulled all over the place by the “can’t shoot straight” Werner, who was making big holes for Mount and Havertz to get forward.
Oh look...3 of the back 4 now playing RB, except that oh so not pacy Zinchenko, who is trying to play offside (even though he can see one of the CBs is playing Havertz on!) or simply no match for the pacy Havertz and the glaringly obvious trap is sprung!
It is not even a surprise because it is Chelsea’s stock in trade!
They do a few things exceedingly well:
1) Their 5/3 knows when to go and when to stay.
2) Their 2 DMs know when to hold and when to push
3) Their lone striker knows when to come short, go long, or peel off into the corners for the space OR the ball (because he knows his job isn’t just to score it is also to make space for the next wave!)
4) Their 2 AMs (Mount, Havertz, Pulisuc…) know where spaces are being created and exploit them.
5) They know that as soon as they lose the ball there is only 1 imperative (learned from Pep), win it back immediately with the press or drop into the 5-4-1 that will win it back in your own third!
Lather, rinse, repeat!
Now, how can I see and know these things from watching half a dozen Chelsea games and especially the previous 2 games against us?
How can I know their preferred formation is 5-2-2-1/3-4-2-1/3-2-4-1/3-2-5 but none of the coaches know this?
How can I see that the SIX MIDFIELDERS (including 2 “wingers” who couldn’t defend their way out of a wet paper bag!) was no match for their 5-2 at the back, let alone their 5-4 after we had passed it around at the back for a minute or two?
I’ll give Pep one thing: Tuchel has built a team formation that is fit for purpose, with the about 13-14 players that can execute it. Beyond that core group, he struggles and needs reinforcements. However, his preferred starting line up is the strongest (physically and formationally) in the League.
Against that backdrop, Peo had to pick a few key areas where we could go Mano a Mano and beat them. Sterling vs Reese James was NOT it! Kante & Jorginho against Gundo & Zin was not it!
Pep failed the team. He failed Fernandinho. He failed Rodri. He failed KDB. In fact, he has flogged the best midfielder in the world TO DEATH this season, and all because we don’t have a fucking centre forward who can play centre forward, because Pep doesn’t like a centre forward who runs less than his most active midfielder. It’s fucking criminal!
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It was you who wrote we wouldn't win anything with Rodri in the team. I was perfectly right that we were going to win a trophy with Rodri already this season! He was one of our best performers during the run of 21 consecutive wins which helped us turn the season around and win things.
We won the league despite Rodri not because of him, if he was as good as what you think he is and say he is then as a record transfer fee holder he would not be dumped for the clubs biggest games of the season for a 36 year old and then someone who has hardly played there this season. Pep has finally seen it. He’s now third choice. It’s nothing to do with form either as Sterling has been in shit form for the last few months yet started the clubs biggest game ever, another decision you will no doubt agree with as Pep made it and he’s won more trophies than me.
Rodri being part of a title winning team means fuck all on his individual abilities or contribution otherwise Darren Fletcher is one of the greatest midfielders in Premier League history.
exactly. my reaction to that post was let him buy his own team and gamble millions.The thing is, you only take a gamble if you're the underdogs and the odds are against you, you don't take a gamble when the cards are stacked in your favour and you just have to do the same thing you've been doing all season that's led the team to that point to win.
It's like playing pontoon as the house, the player sticks on 18, you draw 19 and still decide to twist.
It really is so much more than the argument of "it was only one player at the expense of another."
you know, the consensus most out of form player, for our Captain and best defender at sweeping out attacks up the middle, and the players let him down. whatever.
The fact is he tore the heart out of our team.
---------------Fernie/ Rodri
------De bruyne----------Gundogan
to
---------------Gundogan
-----xxxxxxx--------------xxxxxxx
Where was Gundy when they scored? Our teams leading scorer by the way against PL clubs by 3 goals playing DM?
30 yards up the pitch instinctively playing his usual role, getting caught out from what he was supposed to be doing in a job he doesn't really know how to do. Not his fault for me.
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