Player Topic: Kevin De Bruyne (2015/16)

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KdB is clearly a great talent but we haven't found a home for him in the team yet. He's put in some great performances but I think people would struggle to say we are playing better with him in the team?

Before he came we were far better defensively (Navas tracks back the best of our attacking players) & somehow better going forward. There's been matches this season where bringing Navas on has turned the game around (e.g. Gladbach) & we've suddenly looked far better.

Navas brings next to nothing in terms of end product, but brings so much in terms of how we actually perform. Hard to put my finger on it but it seems we need a player like him on the pitch.

KdB is clearly the far superior player in terms of end product, yet we play far worse with him instead of Navas as a team (IMO). For me this is Pellers job, learn how to use him - he's struggled so far & if a new manager is due in the summer I guess we'll see if they can figure it out.

For Leicester though I would prefer we went back to what was winning us games early in the season, Sterling Silva Navas behind Aguero with KdB to have an impact from the bench. Against Sunderland you'd expect us to dominate and as such I'd rather see KdB for end product.
 
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stablemcfc said:
Before he came we were far better defensively (Navas tracks back the best of our attacking players) & somehow better going forward. There's been matches this season where bringing Navas on has turned the game around (e.g. Gladbach) & we've suddenly looked far better.
Click to expand...

Even i thought KDB looked quite tired in that match and asked for him to be substituted. But really subs are there to bring in fresh energy later in the game when most of the opposition is at 60-70% energy levels and Navas has gotten more than enough rest so far, enough benchsitting that obviously he would want to prove himself. (proffesional as he too)
Taking the Gladbach game then is comparing it somewhat on the extremes, a very tired KDB vs a Fresh Navas vs tired opposition.

Ill agree that Navas brings more on the defense, and has less of an end product. Granted when most of the opposition is getting tired bringing out a rested Pacy Navas will often result in succesull runs down the wing. I can appreciate Navas for his quality's, but i think youre not taking the most objective measurements.

Still, i won't disagree that Starting Navas might give more defensive strenght early on and that KDB could then be brought in later for the finish. But that also depends on how the midfield is set up and how much defensive requirements you'd put on youre wingers. If Pellers is going to set up his midfield as weak as last game then you might prefer a more defensive winger but then i'm not sure what you would do on the left. Personally i'd push a bit more defensive strenght in the midfield allowing the forward players more freedom to do their thing, thinking that giving wingers a lot of defensive duty's is somewhat less optimal. (atleast considering that the forward players are so much more specialised to attacking)

Eitherway, having thought it a bit further (considering my own input on potential formations a page back) it's not so easy eitherway to find a balance between defense and attack that will leave neither understrenght for this team. Say you go to 3 midfielders then youre only going to be left with 3 forward players and that might be a bit few on the attack for our liking. (though granted it might give us a lot more clean sheets) Or you can stay with those 2 midfielders (and actually have some that do their defensive duty's to a acceptable degree) and add in wingers with more defensive quality (Delph/Navas?) but then i would wonder if that leaves us enough on the attacking front.

Ill conclude that youre general idea of subbing the wingers from defensive to attacking in the more difficult matches might have value but i'm not sure if there is enough indication that it would work as you think and i do think the Gladbach game is deffinatly not the best measurement of that. As a final note i also think the idea to fall apart when you have a team that can attack well trough the center the more when you remain with a somewhat understrenght central midfield which other teams might recognise as a weak spot.

stablemcfc said:
KdB is clearly a great talent but we haven't found a home for him in the team yet. He's put in some great performances but I think people would struggle to say we are playing better with him in the team?
Click to expand...

If i'm not mistaken the sentiment after last match was that KDB brought more than others, or otherwise said he visibly added more to our attacking threat. Not sure what youre measurement then is of "playing better as a team". For the goals we swallowed, 2 goals on 2 chances no less, you can hardly blame the forward players to a large degree for such defensive shennanigans. Perhaps it's a matter of being somewhat biased but i do think KDB does bring some extra oomph to the team.
 
stablemcfc said:
KdB is clearly a great talent but we haven't found a home for him in the team yet. He's put in some great performances but I think people would struggle to say we are playing better with him in the team?

Before he came we were far better defensively (Navas tracks back the best of our attacking players) & somehow better going forward. There's been matches this season where bringing Navas on has turned the game around (e.g. Gladbach) & we've suddenly looked far better.

Navas brings next to nothing in terms of end product, but brings so much in terms of how we actually perform. Hard to put my finger on it but it seems we need a player like him on the pitch.

KdB is clearly the far superior player in terms of end product, yet we play far worse with him instead of Navas as a team (IMO). For me this is Pellers job, learn how to use him - he's struggled so far & if a new manager is due in the summer I guess we'll see if they can figure it out.

For Leicester though I would prefer we went back to what was winning us games early in the season, Sterling Silva Navas behind Aguero with KdB to have an impact from the bench. Against Sunderland you'd expect us to dominate and as such I'd rather see KdB for end product.
Click to expand...

You my friend have just absolutely fucking nailed it. Great points about the monchengladbach game when subbing Navas for De Bruyne changed the game completely (navas haters and de bruyne's fanclub have swept that one under the carpet), and also how we were panning everyone at the start of the season with Navas and Sterling either flank and Dave in the middle (again they don't like to acknowledge this at all).

Also agree on leicester - back to basics and what was working so well for us at the start of the season. Get navas and sterling to give us the pace and width either flank that scares teams shitless and allows Dave space in the middle (which he didn't have against arsenal and was why we crafted little or fuck all in the first half despite having plenty of the ball outside their area and a lot of creative talent on the pitch)

And for the record I wouldn't mind too much if Dave or de Bruyne were to start in the middle (as long as sterling and navas are on the flanks) but I agreewith @stablemcfc that de bruyne is more likely to make an impact coming on than dave if we need it, so would prefer Dave to start
 
KDB should not play on the right. For one thing we cripple his goalscoring ability there, esp. from distance.

------------Aguero
KDB------Sterling-----Silva

------------Aguero
Sterling----KDB-------Silva

------------Aguero
Sterling----Silva------Navas

------------Aguero
KDB--------Silva--------Navas

------------Aguero
KDB--------Silva------Sterling


All those offer better overall balance
 
Silva_Spell said:
KDB should not play on the right. For one thing we cripple his goalscoring ability there, esp. from distance.

------------Aguero
KDB------Sterling-----Silva

------------Aguero
Sterling----KDB-------Silva

------------Aguero
Sterling----Silva------Navas

------------Aguero
KDB--------Silva--------Navas

------------Aguero
KDB--------Silva------Sterling


All those offer better overall balance
Click to expand...

KDB has scored plenty of goals from the right, a ton of them in fact and he plays there very effectively for belgium.

But I would like to see sterling on the right, because on the left all he does is cut inside. Putting him on the right might get a bit more of traditional wing play out of him, taking people on round the outside, using his pace, and putting in crosses.
 
FlemishDuck said:
Even i thought KDB looked quite tired in that match and asked for him to be substituted. But really subs are there to bring in fresh energy later in the game when most of the opposition is at 60-70% energy levels and Navas has gotten more than enough rest so far, enough benchsitting that obviously he would want to prove himself. (proffesional as he too)
Taking the Gladbach game then is comparing it somewhat on the extremes, a very tired KDB vs a Fresh Navas vs tired opposition.

Ill agree that Navas brings more on the defense, and has less of an end product. Granted when most of the opposition is getting tired bringing out a rested Pacy Navas will often result in succesull runs down the wing. I can appreciate Navas for his quality's, but i think youre not taking the most objective measurements.

Still, i won't disagree that Starting Navas might give more defensive strenght early on and that KDB could then be brought in later for the finish. But that also depends on how the midfield is set up and how much defensive requirements you'd put on youre wingers. If Pellers is going to set up his midfield as weak as last game then you might prefer a more defensive winger but then i'm not sure what you would do on the left. Personally i'd push a bit more defensive strenght in the midfield allowing the forward players more freedom to do their thing, thinking that giving wingers a lot of defensive duty's is somewhat less optimal. (atleast considering that the forward players are so much more specialised to attacking)

Eitherway, having thought it a bit further (considering my own input on potential formations a page back) it's not so easy eitherway to find a balance between defense and attack that will leave neither understrenght for this team. Say you go to 3 midfielders then youre only going to be left with 3 forward players and that might be a bit few on the attack for our liking. (though granted it might give us a lot more clean sheets) Or you can stay with those 2 midfielders (and actually have some that do their defensive duty's to a acceptable degree) and add in wingers with more defensive quality (Delph/Navas?) but then i would wonder if that leaves us enough on the attacking front.

Ill conclude that youre general idea of subbing the wingers from defensive to attacking in the more difficult matches might have value but i'm not sure if there is enough indication that it would work as you think and i do think the Gladbach game is deffinatly not the best measurement of that. As a final note i also think the idea to fall apart when you have a team that can attack well trough the center the more when you remain with a somewhat understrenght central midfield which other teams might recognise as a weak spot.



If i'm not mistaken the sentiment after last match was that KDB brought more than others, or otherwise said he visibly added more to our attacking threat. Not sure what youre measurement then is of "playing better as a team". For the goals we swallowed, 2 goals on 2 chances no less, you can hardly blame the forward players to a large degree for such defensive shennanigans. Perhaps it's a matter of being somewhat biased but i do think KDB does bring some extra oomph to the team.
Click to expand...
Oh geez that's long but I'll attempt to discuss your points.

I wasn't using the Gladbach game as an example of KdB being a hindrance, I was using it as an example of when Navas comes on we play better - regardless of who went off. There have been 1-2 more matches where the exact same thing has happened (Navas coming on & us improving drastically) I just don't remember which ones.

I think we're in the same boat as to where the problem is though, we set up defensively very poorly, with a weak CM partnership usually in terms of defensive capabilities, which puts more emphasis on how well the wingers defend - and in that scenario there's no contest that Navas is our best winger for tracking back out of any of our attacking players. For this reason I'm leaning more towards Navas starting in tougher matches (much like I'd lean towards not starting Yaya in tougher matches), whether it's then KdB or Sterling that misses out I'm not sure.

Again think you've misinterpreted my post, I didn't say KdB was bad against Arsenal, in fact the opposite, he was our best attacking player for much of the match. I was saying in general, before he joined we won 5/5, conceded none & looked good going forward. Since his introduction we seem to have become a bit disjointed - albeit I think the majority of that is down to our injuries - however if you read the "worries" of some (me included) when we bought KdB was that although he's a great player, he's not a natural winger & we may end up looking less effective because of it. Not convinced that is the case yet as there has been some promising matches with his link up with Silva, but I'd be interested to see us go back to 2 natural wide men with either Silva/KdB in the middle & see how that affects our balance against Leicester.
 
The Fat el Hombre said:
You my friend have just absolutely fucking nailed it. Great points about the monchengladbach game when subbing Navas for De Bruyne changed the game completely (navas haters and de bruyne's fanclub have swept that one under the carpet), and also how we were panning everyone at the start of the season with Navas and Sterling either flank and Dave in the middle (again they don't like to acknowledge this at all).

Also agree on leicester - back to basics and what was working so well for us at the start of the season. Get navas and sterling to give us the pace and width either flank that scares teams shitless and allows Dave space in the middle (which he didn't have against arsenal and was why we crafted little or fuck all in the first half despite having plenty of the ball outside their area and a lot of creative talent on the pitch)

And for the record I wouldn't mind too much if Dave or de Bruyne were to start in the middle (as long as sterling and navas are on the flanks) but I agreewith @stablemcfc that de bruyne is more likely to make an impact coming on than dave if we need it, so would prefer Dave to start
Click to expand...
I'd be at least interested to see us try Navas & Sterling on the wings again, and like you I wouldn't mind Silva of KdB in the centre but would also lean towards Silva as we know what he can do.

It's very clear we've brought in a cracking player, but it's also looking clear that Pellegrini is struggling to set us up to incorporate KdB, Silva & Yaya in a team that doesn't leave us with crippling holes defensively & disjointed offensively. Let's hope he figures it out sooner rather than later.
 
DeBruyne10 said:
Don't be naieve, you can see that De Bruyne and Silva are battling for the same number 10 spot.

Especially when you see how many times Silva skips De Bruyne. He should pass more to De Bruyne because he can make things happen, but Silva definitely choses the opposite.

It doesn't have to be that way, Ajax has played with 2 AM's for years. Even as a small team against big European teams and was succesful with it.

--------------------------------Fernandinho

---------------------------De Bruyne-----Silva--------------

Navas--------------------------Aguero-------------Sterling

Pelle should try it out.
Click to expand...
If Fernandinho were asked to play in that formation, I wouldn't blame him for just saying 'fuck off' and walking off the pitch.
 
Silva_Spell said:
KDB should not play on the right. For one thing we cripple his goalscoring ability there, esp. from distance.

------------Aguero
KDB------Sterling-----Silva

------------Aguero
Sterling----KDB-------Silva

------------Aguero
Sterling----Silva------Navas

------------Aguero
KDB--------Silva--------Navas

------------Aguero
KDB--------Silva------Sterling


All those offer better overall balance
Click to expand...

I wanted us to line up with:
------------Aguero
Sterling----KDB-------Silva

When KDB arrived.

I think
------------Aguero
KDB--------Silva------Sterling
has the potential to work as well.

KDB on the right isn't working right now.
 
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