President Trump

What is the GOP for? Like the Democrats they have a platform, but most of their energy is spent attacking Democrats as "radical leftists" and their braindead base laps it up.

Democrats did need to refocus on economic issues after 2024 and they have. They performed extremely well in the last set of elections so I don't see much to worry about in terms of messaging.
 
Vic said:
Simple answer would be the United Nations but that's subject to veto by bad actors.

Having done an academic study on the morality of tyrannicide (the old word for regime change) from medieval times I'd have to say
(a) the outcomes are not always good and
(b) a prince will only intervene to save an oppressed people if there is some advantage to the prince (I can find the exact quote later)
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I found the quote, from “Junius Brutus” (a nom de plume); Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (1579).

“To advance their own ends, and encroach on others’ rights….the Romans, Alexander the Great, and divers others, pretending to suppress tyrants, have oftentimes enlarged their own limits”. Conversely, if there is “danger and little expectance of profit…most princes do vehemently dispute the lawfulness of the action” (of assisting those suffering under a tyrant). However, he concludes that as a man has a duty to assist another under attack by thieves, so it is lawful for a good prince to assist “a kingdom against a tyrant, the commonwealth against the private spleen of one”; indeed “the prince who, with a negligent and idle regard, looks on the outrageousness of a tyrant, and the massacring of innocents that he might have preserved…is so much more guilty than the tyrant himself”.

Then there was Bishop John Ponet who, in 1556, sought to prove that it is lawful to kill a tyrant. He limited this to "lawful authority" unless “execution of just punishment upon tyrants, idolaters, and treacherous governors” was “by the whole state utterly neglected” or the prince, nobility and council “conspire the subversion or alteration of their country and people”; in such circumstances a private man with “some special inward commandment” from God might kill. (Most western moral debate at the time accepted the bit of the Bible that said all authority was given by God.)
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
I’m not moaning mate, I just think the Democrats are assuming that ‘the problem is Trump’ is the only message they need to get across.
Comprehensive report on the mistakes they made in 2024 has been written but won’t be published.
2024 was a huge collective failure by the Democrats but they seem unable to accept that, as opposed to admit where it went wrong, learn the lessons and put it right. Their only strategy seemed to be ‘Trump will be awful’. It didn’t work then and is unlikely to work in 2028.
Not publishing demonstrates how it has lost its connection to actual voters, common sense and upholding the democratic norms it claimed were important when criticizing the MAGA movement for destroying them.
Groupthink infects the Democratic Party (and the Labour Party for that matter) as well as their voters. Complaining about MAGA voters not being able to think for themselves without acknowledging that same thing infects the Democrats isn’t helpful.
Dean Phillips in Minnesota warned that pitting Biden against Trump wouldn’t end well and he then got hammered in the primary.

The party no longer champions a clear brand “for” anything — having spent the last nine years being “against” Trump — and it employs the same dirty tactics that it vilifies the Republicans for, such as redistricting.
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That’s just a longer version of your first post.

What is the message you want them to convey — specifically?

What was the brand Obama stood for that resonated?

Once again — offer your solution, and then I will play a Republican and destroy it. Which will then display the actual problem with America, which has nothing to do with the Democrats’ message (but does have to do with Biden’s decision to run again, which I called out over and over as a mistake as soon as he won in 2020).

Otherwise, you’re just complaining.
 
WT86 said:
What is the GOP for? Like the Democrats they have a platform, but most of their energy is spent attacking Democrats as "radical leftists" and their braindead base laps it up.

Democrats did need to refocus on economic issues after 2024 and they have. They performed extremely well in the last set of elections so I don't see much to worry about in terms of messaging.
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He’s blaming Democrats for the destruction of conservatism by MAGA. Kind of like “you shouldn’t have worn that short skirt if you didn’t want to get raped.”
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
The party no longer champions a clear brand “for” anything — having spent the last nine years being “against” Trump — and it employs the same dirty tactics that it vilifies the Republicans for, such as redistricting.
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In recent elections, Democratic candidates that stood strongly on ‘affordability’ all performed really well with some record swings. Ordinary Americans are struggling to make ends meet and the pocket book is always a powerful factor in voting.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
That’s just a longer version of your first post.

What is the message you want them to convey — specifically?

What was the brand Obama stood for that resonated?

Once again — offer your solution, and then I will play a Republican and destroy it. Which will then display the actual problem with America, which has nothing to do with the Democrats’ message (but does have to do with Biden’s decision to run again, which I called out over and over as a mistake as soon as he won in 2020).

Otherwise, you’re just complaining.
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Good to have a worthwhile discussion.
I’d not realised that the message that will win a massive majority was. “All Trump voters are thick and everyone’s just complaining.” You should stand!
 
KS55 said:
In recent elections, Democratic candidates that stood strongly on ‘affordability’ all performed really well with some record swings. Ordinary Americans are struggling to make ends meet and the pocket book is always a powerful factor in voting.
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Indeed, but all they’re focussed on is Trump is corrupt, Trump is a liar etc. There’s so much they could be going for but almost everyone knew this about Trump 10 years ago and he’s won twice!
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
I’m not moaning mate, I just think the Democrats are assuming that ‘the problem is Trump’ is the only message they need to get across.
Comprehensive report on the mistakes they made in 2024 has been written but won’t be published.
2024 was a huge collective failure by the Democrats but they seem unable to accept that, as opposed to admit where it went wrong, learn the lessons and put it right. Their only strategy seemed to be ‘Trump will be awful’. It didn’t work then and is unlikely to work in 2028.
Not publishing demonstrates how it has lost its connection to actual voters, common sense and upholding the democratic norms it claimed were important when criticizing the MAGA movement for destroying them.
Groupthink infects the Democratic Party (and the Labour Party for that matter) as well as their voters. Complaining about MAGA voters not being able to think for themselves without acknowledging that same thing infects the Democrats isn’t helpful.
Dean Phillips in Minnesota warned that pitting Biden against Trump wouldn’t end well and he then got hammered in the primary.

The party no longer champions a clear brand “for” anything — having spent the last nine years being “against” Trump — and it employs the same dirty tactics that it vilifies the Republicans for, such as redistricting.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the dems start redistricting in response to Republicans doing it?
 
Blue_Lightsaber said:
This is a generational golden opportunity for EU and other countries to woo American tech giants out of America for good!

Bottom line is they need electricity to power their servers.. and if wind mills are banned, nuclear are banned, coal is banned.. they aren't too happy.

They just need energy for their servers to run!
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Given the constant anti-competitive lawsuits and fines they pay to the EU, I want what you’re smoking!
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Given the constant anti-competitive lawsuits and fines they pay to the EU, I want what you’re smoking!
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That's my point..

the EU's economy is so shit, they rely on fines by companies for their budget.

But they won't get many chances to turn over a new leaf especially as companies aren't too big fans of the current administration.

I know people use Amazon/ Bezos as an example but he's been bullied by them after what happened with his affair going public.. he probably deserves it too.. but my point was general..

Companies are finding it hard to conduct business when rules change by the tweet. Just look at Hyundai/ LG and others.

But you're right.. infact you're more right than I am.. the EU will just trip itself over.. Canada and Dubai aren't that stupid though!
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
Good to have a worthwhile discussion.
I’d not realised that the message that will win a massive majority was. “All Trump voters are thick and everyone’s just complaining.” You should stand!
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It isn’t a discussion yet.

You blamed the Democrats for the rise of MAGA because they have no message.

I asked you to suggest what the message should be. I even asked you what you think Obama’s message was.

Your response was “I guess you think the current message is working.”

Not in 24 it didn’t. But it’s not the same now.

If you can’t respond to the question, just say “I don’t know” — in which case you’re just moaning as I said.

But let me ask you this — if you’re a voter who believes Dems are inherently evil or worse, what message will work?

I think the message is that there isn’t one that works. MAGA has to behold the fruits of MAGAdom for themselves honestly and also have the self-knowledge to recognize what they have wrought and decide — as they did with Nixon — that they erred.

Good luck with that. Nixon wasn’t a cult figure. Trump is.

Same is true for those who didn’t really like Trump but voted for him anyhow, and those who didn’t choose anyone. Those must also see the damage caused in the last year. It’s easier for them to do so — there’s less cognitive dissonance. And wouldn’t you know it? Trump’s approval with independents is cratering, and special elections in the last year have gone heavily in the favo(u)r of blues.
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
It isn’t a discussion yet.

You blamed the Democrats for the rise of MAGA because they have no message.

I asked you to suggest what the message should be. I even asked you what you think Obama’s message was.

Your response was “I guess you think the current message is working.”

Not in 24 it didn’t. But it’s not the same now.

If you can’t respond to the question, just say “I don’t know” — in which case you’re just moaning as I said.

But let me ask you this — if you’re a voter who believes Dems are inherently evil or worse, what message will work?

I think the message is that there isn’t one that works. MAGA has to behold the fruits of MAGAdom for themselves honestly and also have the self-knowledge to recognize what they have wrought and decide — as they did with Nixon — that they erred.

Good luck with that. Nixon wasn’t a cult figure. Trump is.

Same is true for those who didn’t really like Trump but voted for him anyhow, and those who didn’t choose anyone. Those must also see the damage caused in the last year. It’s easier for them to do so — there’s less cognitive dissonance. And wouldn’t you know it? Trump’s approval with independents is cratering, and special elections in the last year have gone heavily in the favo(u)r of blues.
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Nixon infamously said 'I am not a crook' and nobody believed him.

Trump could say 'I am a crook, I am a rapist, and by the way I f*cked your mom' on live TV and he still wouldn't lose any of his core vote.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
Nixon infamously said 'I am not a crook' and nobody believed him.

Trump could say 'I am a crook, I am a rapist, and by the way I f*cked your mom' on live TV and he still wouldn't lose any of his core vote.
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Exactly.

So what is the message Democrats are supposed to offer that counters this?

Boggles my mind that we still have people come here and not be able to figure this out.

And of course the reason is always the same — they lean conservative or libertarian but are logically uncomfortable at the narrative that’s taken over their “side” — and being tarred with epithets because of their association. “If only the other side would offer us something to vote for” they moan, like children.

But instead of being angry and uniting with others with whom they’ve rarely if ever agreed — “liberal” ideologies which they hold in contempt — to defeat the greater ill, they blame liberal politicians for the co-opting of conservative politics by near-neo-fascists.

And presto — they absolve themselves — or politicians with whom they identify — of blame.
 
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I don’t think it’s only the USA like this, basically the working man has been forgotten and the grifters and facists around the world have jumped on it, they don’t have our best interests at heart but they use hatred and vitriol against others to garner support. The old political parties are effectively dead,populism rules, Labour over here have shit the bed and I honestly think unfortunately that Reform could get into some sort of power unless the Americans can show us before in 2028 not to go down that route.
 
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