President Trump

BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Agree.

The trouble lies in what we mean when we say that someone is "intelligent."

When one uses the word in this sense, we mean working intelligence in a broad, everyday sense.

When one uses the word "intelligent" in other contexts, we often mean, comparatively intelligent. Such as, "Crows are extremely 'intelligent'.

I'll give you this - Trump is likely much more intelligent than your average crow. But he's still a fucking moron.
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I think that's the crux of this whole thing - is that people are just using different definitions of intelligence - but they're doing this for very specific reasons.

I'm not disputing (and I'm not sure many would) that in 'common parlance', I would categorise Trump as 'dumb as bricks'. I think some people's concern is that when you speak publicly in this way about Trump, then you're at risk of absolving him from responsibility and playing into his hands. The shitshow he has created has been crafted by his own kind of 'narrow-band intelligence', and he should be made to wear the consequences of that. Painting him as not mentally competent risks blame being incorrectly apportioned to those around him with superior mental faculties. Indeed, this is often exactly how he has dodged consequences to date, by playing stupid. Boris Johnson used exactly the same tactic.
 
SkyBlueFlux said:
I think that's the crux of this whole thing - is that people are just using different definitions of intelligence - but they're doing this for very specific reasons.

I'm not disputing (and I'm not sure many would) that in 'common parlance', I would categorise Trump as 'dumb as bricks'. I think some people's concern is that when you speak publicly in this way about Trump, then you're at risk of absolving him from responsibility and playing into his hands. The shitshow he has created has been crafted by his own kind of 'narrow-band intelligence', and he should be made to wear the consequences of that. Painting him as not mentally competent risks blame being incorrectly apportioned to those around him with superior mental faculties. Indeed, this is often exactly how he has dodged consequences to date, by playing stupid. Boris Johnson used exactly the same tactic.
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With respect, I think you're way over-complicating things.

No one is giving Trump a pass because he isn't up-to-speed and the poor old guy is being duped by those around him.

Trump is all about me. How does such-and-such benefit me? That's basically all. Me instructs everything he does.

Trump is intellectually lazy and thinks that he knows more than everyone else, whatever the topic.

His intellectual laziness means that he does not know (and could care less) about numerous important facts essential to forming rational, well-reasoned opinions and hence to making sound decisions.

Consequently, Trump is an idiot.
 
SkyBlueFlux said:
I think that's the crux of this whole thing - is that people are just using different definitions of intelligence - but they're doing this for very specific reasons.

I'm not disputing (and I'm not sure many would) that in 'common parlance', I would categorise Trump as 'dumb as bricks'. I think some people's concern is that when you speak publicly in this way about Trump, then you're at risk of absolving him from responsibility and playing into his hands. The shitshow he has created has been crafted by his own kind of 'narrow-band intelligence', and he should be made to wear the consequences of that. Painting him as not mentally competent risks blame being incorrectly apportioned to those around him with superior mental faculties. Indeed, this is often exactly how he has dodged consequences to date, by playing stupid. Boris Johnson used exactly the same tactic.
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I think that's about right - it's not intelligence, it's just disinterest.

Making money for Trumps? Interested
Environmental concerns? Disinterested
Getting elected so he can preen and posture? Interested
Being accurate rather than inflammatory? Disinterested.
 
KS55 said:
The military and intelligence people thought he was both stupid and monumentally ignorant.
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Absolutely true, but then he's never really needed to be until he became POTUS. He should never have been nominated, let alone elected.

He doesn't confirm to the traditionally accepted form of intelligence that most people understand in terms of being book smart or understanding of technical details, but he's a master bullshitter. All he needs to be is smarter than his mark (hence the ironic 'I love the poorly educated' statement he made). Saying something loudly and confidently enough will hold sway over a lesser educated individual, and this is where he is smart, in being able to readily identify those people he is able to manipulate. Effective lying is a high form of intelligence.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
Absolutely true, but then he's never really needed to be until he became POTUS. He should never have been nominated, let alone elected.

He doesn't confirm to the traditionally accepted form of intelligence that most people understand in terms of being book smart or understanding of technical details, but he's a master bullshitter. All he needs to be is smarter than his mark (hence the ironic 'I love the poorly educated' statement he made). Saying something loudly and confidently enough will hold sway over a lesser educated individual, and this is where he is smart, in being able to readily identify those people he is able to manipulate. Effective lying is a high form of intelligence.
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I was with you until your last sentence, " Effective lying is a high form of intelligence."

Well then, so is failing every single math quiz. Getting less than 5 marks out of a hundred in multiple choice tests. Consistently proving that you're inept at math, in spite of everyone else around you performing far better, is a "high form of intelligence." - fucking bullshit.

Why bullshit? Because when you label Trump as having (a high form of) intelligence - you're muddying the waters with a personal meaning of the word "intelligence" when used in the context of describing someone as "intelligent."

Trump is a fucking moron. He's not "intelligent" in the everyday, broad sense of the word.

Trump has some characteristics - charisma for example - that are far above the norm. But is charisma, intelligence?

How does Trump stack up, intellectually, to this?


or this?


Call Trump "charismatic" if you will - I've no objection at all. But your claim that Trump must be intelligent because he is charismatic is a bridge, way, way, way, too far. You've lost sight of the meaning of "intelligence" when applied in the common sense to a person.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
I was with you until your last sentence, " Effective lying is a high form of intelligence."

Well then, so is failing every single math quiz. Getting less than 5 marks out of a hundred in multiple choice tests. Consistently proving that you're inept at math, in spite of everyone else around you performing far better, is a "high form of intelligence." - fucking bullshit.

Why bullshit? Because when you label Trump as having (a high form of) intelligence - you're muddying the waters with a personal meaning of the word "intelligence" when used in the context of describing someone as "intelligent."

Trump is a fucking moron. He's not "intelligent" in the everyday, broad sense of the word.

Trump has some characteristics - charisma for example - that are far above the norm. But is charisma, intelligence?

How does Trump stack up, intellectually, to this?


or this?


Call Trump "charismatic" if you will - I've no objection at all. But your claim that Trump must be intelligent because he is charismatic is a bridge, way, way, way, too far. You've lost sight of the meaning of "intelligence" when applied in the common sense to a person.
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I'll rephrase my last sentence - Effective lying requires a higher cognitive loading than simply telling the truth or recalling a fact.

 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
I'll rephrase my last sentence - Effective lying requires a higher cognitive loading than simply telling the truth or recalling a fact.

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Whereas Trump just parrots the same mistruths over and over. When he goes off script, he's suddenly talking about how he bested Obama in 2016 and how Obama has no chance against him in 2024. A one time slip? Understandable. But over and over?

The guy can't even fucking tell the difference between Haley and Pelosi.
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
As @Trevor Morley's Tache has referenced, he is a master manipulator. How is that not a form of intelligence? It plainly is. It’s intellectual snobbery to suggest otherwise.
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Uh, yeah, I read that, and as I argued, he isn’t, because there’s a sucker born every minute and because he was handed money from birth.

Let me ask you this: do you think he would have been able to manipulate people if he’d started poor? No way. His money and his amorality enabled him to. Imagine him sweet-talking someone into giving him money if he was panhandling in an alley. LOL.
 
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Calling him stupid masks his true malignant faults, which are far less forgivable. He is yet to exhibit even a trace of fitness to govern a scout group, let alone the most powerful heavily armed and pugnacious country on earth. With his allies in the media, the military and judiciary , and billionaires like Koch and Besoz and co, he has no need for brains, just the natural instincts of a polecat.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
Uh, yeah, I read that, and as I argued, he isn’t, because there’s a sucker born every minute and because he was handed money from birth.

Let me ask you this: do you think he would have been able to manipulate people if he’d started poor? No way. His money and his amorality enabled him to. Imagine him sweet-talking someone into giving him money if he was panhandling in an alley. LOL.
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It's still 'learned' behaviour based on the circumstances of his upbringing.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
It's still 'learned' behaviour based on the circumstances of his upbringing.
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If intelligence is having the will to do what someone else won’t morally, maybe. Of course it’s a shit-ton easier to have the will when there aren’t any consequences. I mean, Trump lives his life like Bill Murray in the early part of Groundhog Day, when he eats like a glutton, sleeps with a woman knowing she won't be there the next day, punches guys, and drives drunk with no impact on him. Pretty easy to manipulate people when there aren’t any consequences. His wealth and amorality have allowed him to avoid them.
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
If intelligence if having the will to do what someone else won’t morally, maybe. Of course it’s a shit-ton easier to have the will when there aren’t any consequences. I mean, Trump lives his life like Bill Murray in the early part of Groundhog Day, when he eats like a glutton, sleeps with women, punches guys, and drives drunk with no impact on him. Where is the intelligence in that?
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He's having the time of his life.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Republicans are vile

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I’m sure his lord and saviour approves. Blame the victim is the eleventh commandment. Think of all the police and local authorities who did exactly that in this country when Asian gangs raped teens without reprisal.
 
KS55 said:
I’m sure his lord and saviour approves. Blame the victim is the eleventh commandment. Think of all the police and local authorities who did exactly that in this country when Asian gangs raped teens without reprisal.
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I'm sure his lord and saviour thinks he's a ****
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
Uh, yeah, I read that, and as I argued, he isn’t, because there’s a sucker born every minute and because he was handed money from birth.

Let me ask you this: do you think he would have been able to manipulate people if he’d started poor? No way.
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That very difficult to answer with any sense of accuracy as there are so many variables in the equation, but it’s conceivable, yes.

btw I’m not for a minute suggesting he’s incredibly bright, or as smart as me (for example) or anything as ridiculous as that, just that he has characteristics which manifest themselves as forms of intelligence that enable him to maximise certain situations to his own ends.
 
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