Red Issue shameful front cover

[SWP's back]

I couldn't care less about the Munich air disaster. Even if they paraded up and down my street with mourners every feburary, it wouldn't bother me a jot. I have curtains and I can close them whenever I want. I cannot for the life of me fathom why so many people on here harp on about munich all the time, writing essays and shit. If it was a tribute to Frank Swift then good for you, but it never is.

Seriously, who gives a fook what they do? This is a city forum, not blueswhodroneonaboutmunichallthetime.com

The sun is shining, go for a stroll with your ladyfriend and enjoy your life.

Fooling no one still rag

Are you saying whyalwaysLee is a 'rag'?

Everyone of his posts is rag related or having a go at city.

 

[Swales lives]

It's pretty much spot on, to be honest.

It's not in any way taking the piss out of Muamba or his condition, it's taking the piss out of the people who were scrambling over each other to grieve the most for a player who hadn't even died.

There is obviously a fair bit of irony, though, as pointed out above.

This forum had a fair few

Indeed it does. My post was pulled after complaints, cos I said "My thoughts are not with his family, I am not praying for him and I am not in shock... I just wish him well." That was how I honestly felt, but it was not gushing enough to stay on the thread.

 

[Vinjay]

It's pretty much spot on, to be honest.

It's not in any way taking the piss out of Muamba or his condition, it's taking the piss out of the people who were scrambling over each other to grieve the most for a player who hadn't even died.

There is obviously a fair bit of irony, though, as pointed out above.

This forum had a fair few

Indeed it does. My post was pulled after complaints, cos I said "My thoughts are not with his family, I am not praying for him and I am not in shock... I just wish him well." That was how I honestly felt, but it was not gushing enough to stay on the thread.

Noticed that and I actually got briefly banned for comments earlier on that thread about not being in shock. Though my posts stayed which suggests the moderating might be a little inconsistent.

Think it was more the timing of our comments that caused the reaction but at least we were honest.

Excellent column by Richard Littlejohn on the subject as well and he actually witnessed it in person.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2121891/Fabrice-Muamba-Is-hope-sobfest-soon-come-halt.html

 

[M18CTID]

From MUEN comments page on the Red Issue story in response to a clueless Rag that claims United didn't gain any extra fans as a result of Munich:

Harry Stafford, you've spectacularly missed my point so I'll try to simplify it for you.

When Torino suffered their tragedy, there wasn't an outpouring of national and international sympathy remotely comparable to when the Munich air disaster happened. Not only that, as I've already stated, they suffered far bigger player and management losses than United did. They were totally decimated and never fully recovered to their former glories.

In contrast, United gained fans from all over the country and beyond in the immediate aftermath of Munich, not to mention picking up a lot of local City fans who swapped teams out of sympathy - remember the bitterness between both sets of fans in the present day didn't exist back then so this wasn't an unusual thing. You had supporters clubs springing up all over the globe. You were the first club on the planet to gain a significant out of town and out of country fanbase and all this was a direct result of Munich. You might go on about how high your attendances were immediately prior to then but that's irrelevent because those match-goers were almost exclusively drawn from the local catchment area and besides, you were arguably the best team in the country at the time and commonsense dictates that the best teams of that era tended to draw the biggest crowds. Look at Wolves - they had a great team in the 1950's too and their attendances were comparable to yours at the same time. The great Huddersfield team of the late 1920's drew crowds that dwarfed what United were getting at Old Trafford during the same period. To suggest that the seeds of your huge global support base weren't sown as a direct result of Munich smacks of complete and utter delusion.

As for making money off the back of it, you're having a laugh surely? United's raised profile that came about afterwards has led to the club making huge amounts of money in the past 50 years and yet none of it was ever distributed amongst the survivors and their families. No, the only money they received was from the gate receipts and TV rights generated by the previously mentioned 40th anniversary benefit match but not a penny was donated out of club funds and the pot was depleted further when Cantona and his entourage took their £90,000 slice out.

To my knowledge no benefit matches were played previously - there were bucket collections at various football grounds though. Either way, United didn't bother organising anything in the way of a benefit match after Munich. But that's understandable because they were too busy kicking the survivors and their families out of their club rented homes (no doubt you'll try and find a way of defending that too)

 

[Dirty Harry]

From MUEN comments page on the Red Issue story in response to a clueless Rag that claims United didn't gain any extra fans as a result of Munich:

Harry Stafford, you've spectacularly missed my point so I'll try to simplify it for you.

When Torino suffered their tragedy, there wasn't an outpouring of national and international sympathy remotely comparable to when the Munich air disaster happened. Not only that, as I've already stated, they suffered far bigger player and management losses than United did. They were totally decimated and never fully recovered to their former glories.

In contrast, United gained fans from all over the country and beyond in the immediate aftermath of Munich, not to mention picking up a lot of local City fans who swapped teams out of sympathy - remember the bitterness between both sets of fans in the present day didn't exist back then so this wasn't an unusual thing. You had supporters clubs springing up all over the globe. You were the first club on the planet to gain a significant out of town and out of country fanbase and all this was a direct result of Munich. You might go on about how high your attendances were immediately prior to then but that's irrelevent because those match-goers were almost exclusively drawn from the local catchment area and besides, you were arguably the best team in the country at the time and commonsense dictates that the best teams of that era tended to draw the biggest crowds. Look at Wolves - they had a great team in the 1950's too and their attendances were comparable to yours at the same time. The great Huddersfield team of the late 1920's drew crowds that dwarfed what United were getting at Old Trafford during the same period. To suggest that the seeds of your huge global support base weren't sown as a direct result of Munich smacks of complete and utter delusion.

As for making money off the back of it, you're having a laugh surely? United's raised profile that came about afterwards has led to the club making huge amounts of money in the past 50 years and yet none of it was ever distributed amongst the survivors and their families. No, the only money they received was from the gate receipts and TV rights generated by the previously mentioned 40th anniversary benefit match but not a penny was donated out of club funds and the pot was depleted further when Cantona and his entourage took their £90,000 slice out.

To my knowledge no benefit matches were played previously - there were bucket collections at various football grounds though. Either way, United didn't bother organising anything in the way of a benefit match after Munich. But that's understandable because they were too busy kicking the survivors and their families out of their club rented homes (no doubt you'll try and find a way of defending that too)

Fair comments (surprised it actually got through the moderation on the MEN though lol).
Only things I would add are that they gained quite a bit of local support after the war having used Maine Road which would also account for the significant increase in numbers prior to the disaster aswell, as the old fella said (and the above comments) they were an attractive team to watch during this period so quite a few locals prefered to watch them given the choice, to suggest their national and international fanbase sprang up from anything but the air disaster is pure delusion and desperation.

Secondly, for decades united didn't make the most of this raised fanbase financially, it wasn't until Michael Knighton came along with his busines plan(yes Michael Knighton lol) that they realised just how much they were vastly underselling themselves commercially on a national and global basis, it was his plan to capitalise on this until the club realised they could do it without him.

 

[M18CTID]

From MUEN comments page on the Red Issue story in response to a clueless Rag that claims United didn't gain any extra fans as a result of Munich:

Harry Stafford, you've spectacularly missed my point so I'll try to simplify it for you.

When Torino suffered their tragedy, there wasn't an outpouring of national and international sympathy remotely comparable to when the Munich air disaster happened. Not only that, as I've already stated, they suffered far bigger player and management losses than United did. They were totally decimated and never fully recovered to their former glories.

In contrast, United gained fans from all over the country and beyond in the immediate aftermath of Munich, not to mention picking up a lot of local City fans who swapped teams out of sympathy - remember the bitterness between both sets of fans in the present day
didn't exist back then so this wasn't an unusual thing. You had supporters clubs springing up all over the globe. You were the first club on the planet to gain a significant out of town and out of country fanbase and all this was a direct result of Munich. You might go on about how high your attendances were immediately prior to then but that's irrelevent because those match-goers were almost exclusively drawn from the local catchment area and besides, you were arguably the best team in the country at the time and commonsense dictates that the best teams of that era tended to draw the biggest crowds. Look at Wolves - they had a great team in the 1950's too and their attendances were comparable to yours at the same time. The great Huddersfield team of the late 1920's drew crowds that dwarfed what United were getting at Old Trafford during the same period. To suggest that the seeds of your huge global support base weren't sown as a direct result of Munich smacks of complete and utter delusion.

As for making money off the back of it, you're having a laugh surely? United's raised profile that came about afterwards has led to the club making huge amounts of money in the past 50 years and yet none of it was ever distributed amongst the survivors and their families. No, the only money they received was from the gate receipts and TV rights generated by the previously mentioned 40th anniversary benefit match but not a penny was donated out of club funds and the pot was depleted further when Cantona and his entourage took their £90,000 slice out.

To my knowledge no benefit matches were played previously - there were bucket collections at various football grounds though. Either way, United didn't bother organising anything in the way of a benefit match after Munich. But that's understandable because they were too busy kicking the survivors and their families out of their club rented homes (no doubt you'll try and find a way of defending that too)

Fair comments (surprised it actually got through the moderation on the MEN though lol).
Only things I would add are that they gained quite a bit of local support after the war having
used Maine Road which would also account for the significant increase in numbers prior to the disaster aswell, as the old fella said (and the above comments) they were an attractive team to watch during this period so quite a few locals prefered to watch them given the choice, to suggest their national and international fanbase sprang up from anything but the air disaster is pure delusion and desperation.

Secondly, for decades united didn't make the most of this raised fanbase financially, it wasn't until Michael Knighton came along with his busines plan(yes Michael Knighton lol) that they realised just how much they were vastly underselling themselves commercially on a national and global basis, it was his plan to capitalise on this until the club realised they could do it without him.

I'm surprised it got through too!

Yes, United had a far better team than City when football reconvened after WW2. There was also a post-war attendance boom due to the feelgood factor of the war ending. Then you have a situation where United were using Maine Road and the tradition back then of some City and United fans attending each other's home games as travelling to away games was still a largely non-existent phenomenon. A further additional boost to United's crowds at the time, according to Gary James, is that even more City fans than expected were turning up at United's home games because Busby was now United's manager and plenty of our fans still had a lot of affection for him.

However, during this period United didn't have any real semblance of non-local support. No team did. Munich changed all that as it propelled the name of Manchester United into every single household in the country and beyond. They became a household name to both football and non-football fans alike. It astonishes me to see United fans denying this actually happened.

As for Knighton, you're spot on. He was the one that said United could be making far more money by exploiting their huge support base.

 

[Dirty Harry]

I'm surprised it got through too!

Yes, United had a far better team than City when football reconvened after WW2. There was also a post-war attendance boom due to the feelgood factor of the war ending. Then you have a situation where United were using Maine Road and the tradition back then of some City and United fans attending each other's home games as travelling to away games was still a largely non-existent phenomenon. A further additional boost to United's crowds at the time, according to Gary James, is that even more City fans than expected were turning up at United's home games because Busby was now United's manager and plenty of our fans still had a lot of affection for him.

However, during this period United didn't have any real semblance of non-local support. No team did. Munich changed all that as it propelled the name of Manchester United into every single household in the country and beyond. They became a household name to both football and non-football fans alike. It astonishes me to see United fans denying this actually happened.

As for Knighton, you're spot on. He was the one that said United could be making far more money by exploiting their huge support base.

Agreed mate, and especially the bit in bold, plenty of my family (and ex family)in the older generation who have absolutely no interest in football whatsoever will say if they are ever asked 'I support united because of the air disaster', it's the only thing they know about football, these silly rag types would have eveyone believe their popularity rose worldwide because of some 'unique, never seen before brand of swashbuckling football' :-S.

 

[Gary James]

Yes, United had a far better team than City when football reconvened after WW2. There was also a post-war attendance boom due to the feelgood factor of the war ending. Then you have a situation where United were using Maine Road and the tradition back then of some City and United fans attending each other's home games as travelling to away games was still a largely non-existent phenomenon. A further additional boost to United's crowds at the time, according to Gary James, is that even more City fans than expected were turning up at United's home games because Busby was now United's manager and plenty of our fans still had a lot of affection for him.

However, during this period United didn't have any real semblance of non-local support. No team did. Munich changed all that as it propelled the name of Manchester United into every single household in the country and beyond. They became a household name to both football and non-football fans alike. It astonishes me to see United fans denying this actually happened.

As for Knighton, you're spot on. He was the one that said United could be making far more money by exploiting their huge support base.

That's all true but probably needs a bit of clarification.

City fans did have a lot of affection for Busby and did watch him take the then poor relations and turn them into their 1st great side for 37 years. Support reached an all-time Utd high at Maine Rd in 1948 - 54,890 (some 24k plus more than 1938-39) and this dropped when Utd moved back to OT. By 1953-54 it was down to 35,458 despite Utd having a great title chasing side (they'd won League in 1952.

In 1956-57 Utd's crowds had risen to 45,481 after successive titles, then the 1957-58 season crowds increased after the disaster to create an average 46,073. Then 1958-59 saw an average of 53,258 - Utd's second best of all time & their best at OT at this point. However - and this is important because it does show that the initial impact of Munich did not have an impact for too long - crowds dropped in 59-60 to 47,288 and then were down to 33,358 in 1961-62

The proper impact of Munich in the public consciousness came in the 60s. As Busby created his next great side, the story of his quest to win the European Cup and the implications of 58 became part of the Utd drive/glamour/media coverage, so Utd's crowds increased as the media and neutrals focused on the ten year journey from Munich to European success. In 1966-67 Utd's crowds increased to 53,854 and reached 57,552 in 1967-68 - their all time highest until the Premier League era and their only season of support in excess of the 1947-48 Maine Road season. The ten year journey from 58 to 68 is what really cemented Utd's place/name.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Shame he's gone. Didn't want to waste words on him, as this clip sums up my sentiments perfectly.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpzTv5fHgn0[/youtube]

Rant of the millenium.

 

[samharris]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.rte.ie/ten/2007/0208/connorj.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.rte.ie/ten/2007/0208/connorj.html</a> paragraph 3.