Reform UK Party Limited Company

I think it’s far more nuanced than this but fair play for giving it a stab.

To just pick up on one of your observations about resistance to chance and wanting to harp back to a golden era - this is exactly the same rap sheet that could be thrown at unions.

Some will find this uncomfortable but the primary difference to the majority on the left or right is not on where we want to go, but how to get there.

I think one of the defining features of what I’ll call “new conservatism” (oxymoronic perhaps) is a lack of coherency almost by design. And I think that’s the thing that distinguishes it from the left. It’s not so much a difference of opinion on how to get there, it’s that the left has a set of idealised solutions/policies they want to achieve - welfare, social safety net, nationalised utilities and transport, workers rights, strong unions - whereas the right has a set of problems they want to solve but they don’t have a consistent methodology on how to solve them.

You look at Reform who aren’t that different to the Trumpians in the US. They don’t really have what we might think of as a policy platform. The whole things is built on a feeling. They don’t really know how to solve the problems they see, because once you start enquiring deeper their thoughts are full of contradictions. As a group they’ll say “too many immigrants, we want zero immigration.” And then you ask - “okay what about the players in your football team?” and some would say “oh they’re fine they’re contributing to the economy” whereas others would say “no, no exceptions”. Within that cluster of voters there’s not one solution, there’s a range of solutions that sit somewhere between us making student visas a bit harder to get, and us becoming full on North Korea.

That’s because it’s a cult of emotional sentiment. It’s not a forum for practical evaluation. And that’s not to say that this makes their choice of party “wrong”, emotional sentiment is extremely powerful. I think what @BrianW has done above is essentially identify some specific examples of the kind of contradictions I’m talking about, but like you, I agree that it’s more nuanced. I actually don’t think there’s a couple of competing philosophies, there’s like… hundreds of extremely fragmented ideas that maybe don’t rise to the standard of “a philosophy”.
 
I think one of the defining features of what I’ll call “new conservatism” (oxymoronic perhaps) is a lack of coherency almost by design. And I think that’s the thing that distinguishes it from the left. It’s not so much a difference of opinion on how to get there, it’s that the left has a set of idealised solutions/policies they want to achieve - welfare, social safety net, nationalised utilities and transport, workers rights, strong unions - whereas the right has a set of problems they want to solve but they don’t have a consistent methodology on how to solve them.

You look at Reform who aren’t that different to the Trumpians in the US. They don’t really have what we might think of as a policy platform. The whole things is built on a feeling. They don’t really know how to solve the problems they see, because once you start enquiring deeper their thoughts are full of contradictions. As a group they’ll say “too many immigrants, we want zero immigration.” And then you ask - “okay what about the players in your football team?” and some would say “oh they’re fine they’re contributing to the economy” whereas others would say “no, no exceptions”. Within that cluster of voters there’s not one solution, there’s a range of solutions that sit somewhere between us making student visas a bit harder to get, and us becoming full on North Korea.

That’s because it’s a cult of emotional sentiment. It’s not a forum for practical evaluation. And that’s not to say that this makes their choice of party “wrong”, emotional sentiment is extremely powerful. I think what @BrianW has done above is essentially identify some specific examples of the kind of contradictions I’m talking about, but like you, I agree that it’s more nuanced. I actually don’t think there’s a couple of competing philosophies, there’s like… hundreds of extremely fragmented ideas that maybe don’t rise to the standard of “a philosophy”.

That's probably because Reform is just a platform for junk ideas so billionaires can get tax cuts and deregulation on the back of it. It's very similar to Maga and Tea Party republicans because they all have the same purpose.

It's deliberately incoherent by design, just like the 419 emails from Nigerian princes.
 
Most people, for one reason or another, don't think things through. Some simply don't have time. Others are just intellectually lazy or simply don't have the necessary ability.

To give an extreme example, when Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany losing WW1, I suspect many Germans nodded in agreement, as it was a comforting argument that suggested it was not the fault of their WW1 leaders and still less of their soldiers. They did not (generally) examine the facts behind that argument in any detail. And I very much doubt that your average German person envisaged 6 million Jews being exterminated on the strength of it. While some would have hated Jews anyway, many others would have expected, at worst, any guilty Jews to be punished (not all Jews) or that Jews would be made to leave Germany.

In other words, it's extremely dangerous to give carte blanche, or indeed any power at all, to liars and charlatans. The result is unlikely to be what you wished for and may well be an utter disaster. Because these charlatans don't give a fuck about you and me. They just want money and the heady pleasures of exercising power for its own sake.
 
That's probably because Reform is just a platform for junk ideas so billionaires can get tax cuts and deregulation on the back of it. It's very similar to Maga and Tea Party republicans because they all have the same purpose.

It's deliberately incoherent by design, just like the 419 emails from Nigerian princes.

Yes totally agree, the people at the top of these movements are a whole other kettle of fish and pretty much never share the interests or motivations of the membership.

It’s kind of fascinating and something I’ve never been able to get my head around. As a working class person, why would I ever feel any kind of affinity with a rich, privately educated, suit and tie wearing snake oil salesman like Trump or Farage? Bizarre to me. For voters who are keen on declaring themselves “no-nonsense alpha males” it’s a contradictorily weird and subservient behaviour.
 

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