Refugee crisis

[foetus]

This problem extends beyond ISIS. People in Syria are fleeing a civil war, not ISIS. The war is a creation of our own doing because we supported the Syrian rebels years ago giving them the strength to push Assad's (Syrian leader) forces back. Anyone remember the chemical weapons stuff a few years ago? Assad has not been able to defeat the rebels and has lost control over the country and now it has allowed ISIS themselves to gain territory. Who do you bomb and who do you support to solve this kind of war containing multiple sides? We could take the rebel side and wipeout Assad but that would allow ISIS to gain further ground, they want an Islamic state and therefore want Syria. Russia and Iran also support Assad so you are effectively fighting them if you go against Assad too. We could support Assad to bring stability to the region but bare in mind we would be shooting at rebels who just a few years ago we gave our own weapons to.

It is a problem that unfortunately we cannot solve and as for the refugee crisis, I am surprised it has taken this long for people to come flooding across. Whilst we continue to interfere in the region, we can't exactly just wash our hands of the whole affair. People may not like it but this problem will not go away and to prevent a humanitarian crisis we have to do more and we have to take our fair share.

Fair enough. I'm pretty ignorant to all the politics/issues happening over there. How has it all become so fucked up? Why are people so cruel to one another? Fucking ridiculous.

 

[grunge]

Fair enough. I'm pretty ignorant to all the politics/issues happening over there. How has it all become so fucked up? Why are people so cruel to one another? Fucking ridiculous.

The way I see it ( im no expert, just going by reports i've read over the last few years so maybe wrong ) is the middle east was a bit of a mess anyway but was being held together with sticky tape ( evil bastards like Saddam/Gadaffi controlling there people with a bit of an iron fist etc ), we come along with the Americans and blow Iraq back to the stone age, this created a power vacuum in Iraq, at the same time we were doing the same to Afghanistan creating a power vacuum in Afghanistan, This basically broke the power base in the middle east which gave rise to the Arab spring, which was basically a bunch of people uprisings around the region killing off existing power bases ( Gadaffi for example ) and causing yet more power vacuums, the last Arab spring uprising was in Syria, which is now the Civil war going on over there, but the war is exacerbated by ISIS, who have risen up and taken advantage of the power vacuum caused by us and the Americans.

Something that has been a constant through out the Arab spring uprisings is reports by the existing governments that the uprisings were aided by Al Qaeda or other extremist groups, lots of these reports were fobbed off as propaganda, but I now believe these extremists probably did play a hand it all and has formed the basis of ISIS.

Back to the refugee crisis, There are about 3 million Syrian refugees in neighbouring countries, about 1 million of them in Turkey living in horrific conditions, if they were lucky they got into a camp where they can at least get food and basic shelter, else they are living on the streets.

If the EU + America + Syria's neighbours all took an equal share of the refugees it would be about 93k people per country which should be easily manageable.

 

[foetus]

The way I see it ( im no expert, just going by reports i've read over the last few years so maybe wrong ) is the middle east was a bit of a mess anyway but was being held together with sticky tape ( evil bastards like Saddam/Gadaffi controlling there people with a bit of an iron fist etc ), we come along with the Americans and blow Iraq back to the stone age, this created a power vacuum in Iraq, at the same time we were doing the same to Afghanistan creating a power vacuum in Afghanistan, This basically broke the power base in the middle east which gave rise to the Arab spring, which was basically a bunch of people uprisings around the region killing off existing power bases ( Gadaffi for example ) and causing yet more power vacuums, the last Arab spring uprising was in Syria, which is now the Civil war going on over there, but the war is exacerbated by ISIS, who have risen up and taken advantage of the power vacuum caused by us and the Americans.

Something that has been a constant through out the Arab spring uprisings is reports by the existing governments that the uprisings were aided by Al Qaeda or other extremist groups, lots of these reports were fobbed off as propaganda, but I now believe these extremists probably did play a hand it all and has formed the basis of ISIS.

Back to the refugee crisis, There are about 3 million Syrian refugees in neighbouring countries, about 1 million of them in Turkey living in horrific conditions, if they were lucky they got into a camp where they can at least get food and basic shelter, else they are living on the streets.

If the EU + America + Syria's neighbours all took an equal share of the refugees it would be about 93k people per country which should be easily manageable.

Thanks for the response.

In regards to the refugees, I can understand the short term fix of different countries taking in these refugees. These people are in desperate need of help. The question is what happens long term? There surely comes a point where countries can't keep on taking more and more people. I guess that's the question that no one has a good solution to yet.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Thanks for the response.

In regards to the refugees, I can understand the short term fix of different countries taking in these refugees. These people are in desperate need of help. The question is what happens long term? There surely comes a point where countries can't keep on taking more and more people. I guess that's the question that no one has a good solution to yet.

The issue has never been that countries can't take more people the issue is that countries can't take more people without some sacrifices in existing standards of living . The idea that aus, the uS, Nordics , Canada, NZ, UK etc couldn't handle people is a falacy. But handling without some sacrifice is a falacy.

 

[aguero93:20]

ok so 500 come to blackpool can you tell me where your going to home them and don't tell me council homes as i hear there is a five year waiting list and that's if you meet the criateria

Are you saying 1 in every 60 people in the UK are in Blackpool?

 

[aguero93:20]

today they espouse building a wall....would you like to build a wall?

I'll send the **** a brick, no problem.

 

[M18CTID]

It's nothing to do with nationality. You're telling me British people don't do that? Check any town centre at the weekend. I'm guilty of having mates in the garden at the weekend, where should I be deported to?

Poland

 

[grunge]

Thanks for the response.

In regards to the refugees, I can understand the short term fix of different countries taking in these refugees. These people are in desperate need of help. The question is what happens long term? There surely comes a point where countries can't keep on taking more and more people. I guess that's the question that no one has a good solution to yet.

I cant see a way of fixing it thats for sure, we can and should bolster Iraq as much as possible, which is easier said than done, there are multiple factions within Iraq that hate each other, since we and the Americas have left they seem to he terror attacking each other all over the show.. But if we can stabilise them and push ISIS out of Iraq then Isis gets blocked into 1 war torn country. while doing that we bolster turkey making sure Isis cant push through there boarders ( Turkey have a decent military so that would be tricky anyway )

Syria is a major dilemma though as Russia has a major stake in Syria as its one of there main ways into the Med and have naval bases there so what ever action is taken will need Russian approval and they seem intent on letting it just play out.

Personally I think we go for the lesser of 2 evils and back Assad the current Syrian leader, If we did that then Russia may join in.

To me the nightmare situation is ISIS manage to take over Syria or Iraq or both entirely, then decide to test their mite against Israel.


In the long ( very long ) term, the only way to stop large scale extremism like this is compassion and education and raise the standard of living around the world.

 

[inbetween]

Thanks for the response.

In regards to the refugees, I can understand the short term fix of different countries taking in these refugees. These people are in desperate need of help. The question is what happens long term? There surely comes a point where countries can't keep on taking more and more people. I guess that's the question that no one has a good solution to yet.

That is the main worry but really no-one knows the full story just yet. I think the government can decide how many they will take and each country will probably decide some sort of quota. Until then they will probably be held in camps or something similar with access to medical care, food and so on before being processed. The biggest problem is the illegal migrants which is what is happening at Calais. It was in the news yesterday about a train of migrants near Budapest, it looked bad but I think the Police were just trying to remove or detain the illegal immigrants there and that is a bigger problem because no-one knows how many there are.

Working out the mix of genuine refugees and those just trying to enter illegally is probably the biggest problem.

 

[bluemanc]

Perhaps they aren't taking refugees in because they're running the Human Trafficking business.

 

[geoff clipp]

I found this to be a pretty interesting read this morning.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/04/10-ways-to-manage-the-migration-crisis

 

[EalingBlue2]

Perhaps they aren't taking refugees in because they're running the Human Trafficking business.

That should make people think a very wealthy country of 70m people can't take 50000 because it would mean collapse, saying people should stay in the countries and those countries should do more,

Whilst a country of 78m has got 1.8m or more dramatically a country of 4.3m has taken 1.2m and another country of 6m has taken 600000 +
Turkey and Lebanon have a GDP per capita about 40% of UK, Jordan less than 15%

So in effect the it's someone else's problem brigade believe a country that is significantly smaller and poorer can take a third of its population in refugees it for Britain to take A 1 in a thousand increase would collapse the country , Australia is even worse as a richer less populated country even than Britain

 

[EalingBlue2]

That is the main worry but really no-one knows the full story just yet. I think the government can decide how many they will take and each country will probably decide some sort of quota. Until then they will probably be held in camps or something similar with access to medical care, food and so on before being processed. The biggest problem is the illegal migrants which is what is happening at Calais. It was in the news yesterday about a train of migrants near Budapest, it looked bad but I think the Police were just trying to remove or detain the illegal immigrants there and that is a bigger problem because no-one knows how many there are.

Working out the mix of genuine refugees and those just trying to enter illegally is probably the biggest problem.

What is a genuine refugee and what is an economic migrant. It seems to me they are often the same thing just different people choose to use different monikers to justify their opinions

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I found this to be a pretty interesting read this morning.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/04/10-ways-to-manage-the-migration-crisis

These articles continually refuse to address the repercussions of offering homes to around 500,000 throughout Europe, in that many, many millions more will be inspired to leave.
In the rush to prove who is the more caring and compassionate, nobody has yet offered a solution to this inevitable consequence.
Nobody has yet has given a satisfactory explanation as to why the overwhelming majority of those in Hungary are young, fit men.

 

[aguero93:20]

What is a genuine refugee and what is an economic migrant. It seems to me they are often the same thing just different people choose to use different monikers to justify their opinions

If they're in Turkey or Libya they're refugees, if they don't like being treated like dogs and kept in lawless camps and try to come to Europe where the bill of human rights is upheld they're economic migrants. Keep up.

 

[Monkfish]

Nobody has yet has given a satisfactory explanation as to why the overwhelming majority of those in Hungary are young, fit men.

Fit young men find walking 1000's of miles in temperatures in the 100's easier than those who are not fit young men, I would imagine the ones who got out are the ones that physically could

And you could of at least read the article before dismissing it

 

[aguero93:20]

Nobody has yet has given a satisfactory explanation as to why the overwhelming majority of those in Hungary are young, fit men.

Because they're better able to undertake the journey, find somewhere they'll be given residence and send back for their families.

 

[CityStu]

Fit young men find walking 1000's of miles in temperatures in the 100's easier than those who are not fit young men, I would imagine the ones who got out are the ones that physically could

They are the ones that should be fighting against ISIS.

What do those saying "welcome them all (or large numbers of them)" think will happen to Syria? Do they imagine that ISIS will simply go away? Or do they believe that the West should send in troops? The former is naive and the second hasn't gone too well when done recently.

The people that need to stand up and fight for Syria are those young, fit men currently hanging out in Hungary trying to get to Germany. By all means, assist them with training, troops and weapons but the Syrian people need to be the driving force for change.

Currently they are running from their problems.

 

[EalingBlue2]

If they're in Turkey or Libya they're refugees, if they don't like being treated like dogs and kept in lawless camps and try to come to Europe where the bill of human rights is upheld they're economic migrants. Keep up.

So what you mean is if they want to come to Britain they are economic migrants but if they want to go to Turkey they are refugees . Nail on head. Unless you are the daily mail when they are all just evil potential terrorists who want to blow you up in your sleep

 

[Monkfish]

They are the ones that should be fighting against ISIS.

What do those saying "welcome them all (or large numbers of them)" think will happen to Syria? Do they imagine that ISIS will simply go away? Or do they believe that the West should send in troops? The former is naive and the second hasn't gone too well when done recently.

The people that need to stand up and fight for Syria are those young, fit men currently hanging out in Hungary trying to get to Germany. By all means, assist them with training, troops and weapons but the Syrian people need to be the driving force for change.

Currently they are running from their problems.

We decided not to arm them as we didn't want to upset the Russians, shall we send all the fit young men back and get them to throw some drowned children at ISIS?