Religion

[idahoblues]

 

[arfurclue]

“O thou who are trying to learn the marvel of Love through the copybook of reason, I am very much afraid you will never see the point.” Hafez

 

[m7mcfc]

That’s ok. I’m not offended.
Just to demonstrate to all in here though, the difference between perception and fact.
Exhibit A:
Pope’s visit 1979
View attachment 34188
That dome in the distance is the stage. Sorry, altar.

Exhibit B:
Pope’s visit 2018
View attachment 34189
I think they overestimated his appeal.

I th

That’s ok. I’m not offended.
Just to demonstrate to all in here though, the difference between perception and fact.
Exhibit A:
Pope’s visit 1979
View attachment 34188
That dome in the distance is the stage. Sorry, altar.

Exhibit B:
Pope’s visit 2018
View attachment 34189
I think they overestimated his appeal.

I was taken there by Mum & Dad I am sure 250000 turned up but it does not look like it from that picture. I thought it was packed but hey ho that is a memory of a 9 year old at the time.

 

[vmsuhail]

Yes that’s right but Elizabeth is Mary’s cousin in the New Testament and it gets the whole relationship mixed up and who Aaron is. I must admit I don’t have the experience of studying the Quran, I have just read bits of it and what I’m doing here is taking other people’s word for it.

Why would they call Mary the sister of a prophet from 1000 years earlier and do others get similar treatment?

Also there’s a mistake with Imran and it’s tried to be corrected to Jesus’s grandfather, Mary’s father but in the Bible it’s Joachim.

Yes, Elizabeth(ra) is Mary's(ra) cousin. She is also mentioned as daughter of Aaron(as) in the Bible (Luke 1:5). So, the chances are that Mary(ra) is also a descendent of Aaron(as).

The context of the verse in question is when the people found out that Mary(as) was carrying, and they replied
Qur'an 19:28 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

So they are actually reminding her of her lineage [being from the priestly tribe of Aaron(as)], her father and mother and questioning how could she do such a thing.

Moses(as) is the most mentioned prophet in the Qur'an. If the characters were indeed mixed up, there would've been some overlap in the stories between Moses(as) and Mary(as), which we do not find anywhere. Also, the gap between them is evident in other verses. For example:
Qur'an 2:87 "We gave Moses the Scripture and We sent messengers after him in succession. We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit…."

See the sequence here : Moses(as) -> a lot of messengers -> Jesus(as), son of Mary(ra)

Mary's(as) parents are not mentioned in the Bible. The name Joachim comes from an apocryphal source in the 2nd century. So it's not a reliable information.

 

[mexico1970]

I th
I was taken there by Mum & Dad I am sure 250000 turned up but it does not look like it from that picture. I thought it was packed but hey ho that is a memory of a 9 year old at the time.

The Catholic version of York away mate ;)

 

[tonea2003]

You’ve got that correct but the reason I started to debate in this thread was because people were saying things about Christianity that were completely incorrect and several have continued to post bad sources and make poor arguments.

Some of the first people I questioned were saying Jesus likely didn’t exist, which is not true, he very likely did.

Too many are in the “fuck off it’s all bollocks” camp and don’t want to learn about different religions.

You are religious because you have faith is how I look at it.

I don’t know if there’s a god or not, neither does anyone else.

if you say the bible is a bad source, well i can't disagree you there

i will change my tack slightly to appease you, there is a possibility he didn't exist, that is whether you or bart like it or not, for you to say its not true when you actually don't know for sure is a bit disingenuous
and i've never said he doesn't exist certainly the lay preacher version

i'm not sure what is behind your vociferous defence of jesus

 

[Octavian]

if you say the bible is a bad source, well i can't disagree you there

i will change my tack slightly to appease you, there is a possibility he didn't exist, that is whether you or bart like it or not, for you to say its not true when you actually don't know for sure is a bit disingenuous
and i've never said he doesn't exist certainly the lay preacher version

i'm not sure what is behind your vociferous defence of jesus

Of course there is a possibility, I’m just saying it’s incredibly unlikely.

My defence of Jesus the man is that I felt he was well ahead of his time and a lot of what he preached was very good, so much so that it positively affects people today. The Bible as a whole also negatively affects people to this day but that’s outside of what Jesus apparently said.

My other defence is that the gospels do have some historical merit to them and Paul’s letters definitely do. Not miracles, not resurrections etc. but some of the story is likely true.

Other than that I think we completely agree.

 

[andyhinch]

I th
I was taken there by Mum & Dad I am sure 250000 turned up but it does not look like it from that picture. I thought it was packed but hey ho that is a memory of a 9 year old at the time.

Your thinking of York away mate :-)

 

[Octavian]

Yes, Elizabeth(ra) is Mary's(ra) cousin. She is also mentioned as daughter of Aaron(as) in the Bible (Luke 1:5). So, the chances are that Mary(ra) is also a descendent of Aaron(as).

The context of the verse in question is when the people found out that Mary(as) was carrying, and they replied
Qur'an 19:28 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

So they are actually reminding her of her lineage [being from the priestly tribe of Aaron(as)], her father and mother and questioning how could she do such a thing.

Moses(as) is the most mentioned prophet in the Qur'an. If the characters were indeed mixed up, there would've been some overlap in the stories between Moses(as) and Mary(as), which we do not find anywhere. Also, the gap between them is evident in other verses. For example:
Qur'an 2:87 "We gave Moses the Scripture and We sent messengers after him in succession. We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit…."

See the sequence here : Moses(as) -> a lot of messengers -> Jesus(as), son of Mary(ra)

Mary's(as) parents are not mentioned in the Bible. The name Joachim comes from an apocryphal source in the 2nd century. So it's not a reliable information.

Depends on the translation but KJV says daughters of Aaron (you’re right) and NIV says descendants.

Why wouldn’t the Quran say daughters instead of sisters?

The Gospel of James isn’t canon I agree however I think the likelihood is Muhammad didn’t have access to this book and therefore Imran was a convenient replacement name.

 

[paulsimpson]

Afternoon Paul. I’ve been thinking after we had a brief chat on here last week and wanted to question you on something.

I think it’s fair to say you think the Bible is perfect and is the word of God, would you say?

An example of inconsistency in the gospels is the death of Judas Iscariot. Matthew 27:5 has him hanging himself and Luke, in Acts 1:18 has him fall over and split open.

We know the field of blood comes from these two accounts and it was Judas’s blood money for betraying Jesus which purchased the field in Matthew but that Judas dying in the field in Luke (well Acts but same author as you know).

This is clearly a contradiction in details of the events and despite the fact we can be confident of Judas dying as a result of betraying Jesus not long after… there is a significant difference in the details of how.

What are your thoughts on that, this surely proves the Bible isn’t entirely relatable for historical fact?

Thanks Octavian for your question. There are seeming contradictions but after analysing them one can see there are none at all through good reasoning.
About how Judas died, here is a simple bringing together of the facts: Judas hanged himself in the potter’s field (Matthew 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.), and that is how he died. Then, after his body had begun to decay and bloat, the rope broke, or the branch of the tree he was using broke, and his body fell, bursting open on the land of the potter’s field (Acts 1:18–19.Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is field of blood)
Luke does not say that Judas died from the fall, only that his body fell. The Acts passage presumes Judas’s hanging like a man who falls down in a field does not normally result in his body bursting open. Only decomposition and a fall from a height could cause a body to burst open. So Matthew mentions the actual cause of death and Luke concentrates more on the details surrounding it.

About who paid for the field, there are two ways to reconcile the facts: 1) Judas was promised the thirty pieces of silver several days before Jesus’ arrest (Mark 14:11when they heard it, they were glad and promised to give him money. And he sought an opportunity to betray him.). Sometime during the days leading up to his betrayal of Jesus, Judas made arrangements to purchase a field, although no money had yet been transferred. After the deed of betrayal was done, Judas was paid, but he then returned the money to the chief priests. The priests, who considered the silver to be blood money, completed the transaction that Judas had begun and bought the field.
2) When Judas threw the thirty pieces of silver down, the priests took the money and used it to buy the potter’s field (Matthew 27:6-7 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they took counsel and bought with them the potter’s field as a burial place for strangers. ). Judas may not have purchased the field personally, but he provided the money for the transaction and could then be said to be the buyer.