OB1 said:aguero93:20 said:OB1 said:I'm sorry but how the #### do you know that Mansour will not invest more equity in MCFC in order to fund transfers? Can you provide the quotes from the accounts that definitively say that?
I know that it says this in the Strategic Report: "Consistent with the commitment made in 2009-10 that transfers of the scale seen in previous years would be unlikely to be repeated, significant benefit has been gained from greater stability in the first team squad resulting in reduced amortisation costs." And I know that the idea is to build a self sustaining business model - which I support - but that does not mean Mansour won't put more money in; especially if FFP gets kicked out or modified. "Unlikely" is not a definitive statement.
Let's not forget that putting / signing players on long contracts means that their cost is spread and can mean that with growing revenues a sizable capital investment can be affordable from a profitability point of view but from a cash perspective may require new upfront investment.
Ultimately, if Mansour wants the best team in the world - and my opinion is that he does - he can choose to do whatever he wants that is within the the rules to get there and if that means investing more in the first team, I can see him changing his plans. No business can produce a plan and then stick slavishly to every aspect of it for years and years.
You should have read my posts, I said that I couldn't see us failing to get hard cash from CFG/ADUG if we needed it to fund a transfer. As for quotes, both Soriano and Khaldoon have said repeatedly in the last 12 months that we are now expected to live within our revenues and if we want to increase spending, we'll do it through growing revenues.
http://www.mcfc.com/News/Club-news/2014/December/Club-annual-report-2014
Speaking in the report, Chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak, comments on the on field achievements of the first team which secured the Premier League title and Capital One Cup in the reporting period, as well as the wider league and national tournament success of several of the Club’s Academy year groups.
Furthermore he outlines his commitment to Manchester City Women’s FC which competed in its first season in the FA Women’s Super League.
He also emphasizes the progress made off the field and global expansion of the wider City Football Group organisation, referencing the deep ties between Manchester City FC and its sister clubs in New York, Melbourne and Yokohama and looks ahead to the imminent opening of the City Football Academy, planning for which began at the outset of His Highness’ investment.
...Chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak...
"We have moved beyond the period of heavy investment that was required to make the Club competitive again, it is commercial growth of the kind we are seeing today that will underpin and support our operations in the future."
The Chairman concludes that today the Club “is where we hoped it would be when we began this transformation six years ago” and eagerly looks to what lies ahead for the Club and its supporters.
Chief Executive Officer Ferran Soriano, supporting the thoughts of the Chairman points to “a new level of financial sustainability” and outlines that not only has the Club halved losses for three consecutive years, but that it has budgeted for a profit in 2014-15 and the club expects to be entering the 2015-16 season with no outstanding sanctions or restrictions.
This year’s annual report is accompanied by an “At a glance” supplement, designed to give fans and all interested parties a more condensed and concise guide to the Club’s progress in the same period.
I'm busy so you will have to forgive me for not reading every last word of yours but the most recent that I responded to was:
"...me saying we would invest from club revenues and not Mansour's own money"
which was consistent with:
"Mansour won't be investing, you're out of your mind if you don't understand that any investment in the first team will come from our own revenues from now on."
So are you now saying that Mr A is not mad to think that Mansour might actually invest more of his own money in the first team?
I have read plenty of our senior managements' pronouncements on the club and its finances, I have a copy of the full annual report downloaded on my computer, and I fully understand them. I am also sure that these guys are serious about what they say but I do not recall one definitive statement that precludes Mansour putting his hand in his very deep pockets if he decides he wants to or needs to.
Never say never :-)
bluechampion7891 said:callumcity said:bluechampion7891 said:wow...there are so many things wrong I dont know where to begin
First of all, Pogba or Barkley are not Toure's replacement, at least not directly. They do bring a similar physicality and ball skills but what they lack is the ability to control a game, the range of passing that Yaya possesses, the ability to be always available to receive a pass and play it. These latter qualities define Yaya's role in the team, not the occasional box to box stuff that we see (and that most pundits like to point out that Yaya hasnt had a good game when they dont see that stuff).
So Besic, yeah so he did play well against Messi, but international football is hardly a gauge of someone's true ability. Fernando has CL experience and we've seen how good he was against bayern and Roma, champions league caliber opposition, not QPR, which are relegation candidates
Did you see Barkley last night vs QPR? He played in a deeper role and controlled and dictated the game for everton, at the age of 21. Yaya couldn't ping a 30 yard pass when he was 21 and he didn't do it when he'd first joined city. He also couldn't control a game at 21. It was a late addition to Yaya's game and im sure in time Barkley will master the art of a long ranged pass. Barkley is a very intelligent player who shares many qualities with Toure so for you to dismiss him is very naive.
About Besic, I call them how i see them and what i've seen from Besic is very impressive. He seems more technically and mentally adept to the premier league than Fernando and I also admire his attitude which is similar to that of Milner. Yes, Fernando has champions league experience, but so does fucking Cleverley. I'm not bashing Fernando, I think hes been a welcomed addition to the squad, its just I think Besic has a bit more about him.
I stand by everything I said. You are a fool if you think Barkley or Pogba can't replace Toure.
Nope they can't, not at the moment. Stick Barkley in place of Yaya at this moment, do you think we will get better? Yep, he did OK to good versus QPR, I was actually quite intrigued at Barkley playing in a deeper role, but doing it day in day out versus oppositon that is much better than QPR is another thing.
FWIW, I dont dismiss Barkley at all. this is what I wrote before (in this thread):
no, he cannot replace Yaya and he cannot play as a midfielder in 2 at the moment.
However, I see no reason why, after a year or two of tactical development, he coudnt start alongside fernando or someone like Koke, the former being very good defensively and the latter giving an element of yaya's control. He has the makings of a very special box to box player, if we sign him as a number 10 or as Yaya's direct replacement i'll question our recruitment team.
We already have the best #10 in Silva, and we have a plethora of academy talent (Pozo, Lopes, even Iheanacho is more a #10 forward than a striker) who I'd like to see as the future. Barkley will have to improve his goal output a lot or play precise killer balls or show that he can run the game in the final third to be worth the #10 position, and IMO at the moment I don't see it.
Similarly, he lacks the passing ability and control that Yaya provides, and gives possession away too easily to be the midfield dictator.
But his engine, strength, power, pace, dribbling, long shots and ability with both feet means he can be an elite box to box midfielder with time. I see him as more fernandinho's heir than as Yaya's or Silva's. I wouldn't mind if we got him for something like 30M + milner, with his role being in rotation with fernandinho with him eventually taking his position, as long as we get either Koke or Pogba to be the controller in midfield.
I rate both Pogba and Barkley, very much. I may have come off a bit harsh, but I don't expect either of them to directly replace Yaya. Barkley definitely not at the moment, Pogba should get into the first team with a slight change in style
aguero93:20 said:I was talking in a short term sense as in was in the context of signing Ross Barkley, however even if the external factors (ie FFP) that would seek to prevent him doing so were to disappear I would think it unlikely, it'll be the crowning glory of his investment and plan if we become a self sustaining debt free elite club.
Mister Appointment said:aguero93:20 said:I was talking in a short term sense as in was in the context of signing Ross Barkley, however even if the external factors (ie FFP) that would seek to prevent him doing so were to disappear I would think it unlikely, it'll be the crowning glory of his investment and plan if we become a self sustaining debt free elite club.
I suspect Mansour cares far more about winning the big trophies year in year out than being the new Arsenal. :)
I do understand the sentiment of what you're posting and I too think it's great that we're becoming sustainable and debt free - but IMO this will never be done at the expense of the first team. It hasn't so far so I'm not sure why that would change.
Just out curiosity how do you see our current conundrum with regards homegrown players? Obviously our squad is restricted but even operating without restrictions we don't have the numbers of English players required in the squad.
aguero93:20 said:Mister Appointment said:aguero93:20 said:I was talking in a short term sense as in was in the context of signing Ross Barkley, however even if the external factors (ie FFP) that would seek to prevent him doing so were to disappear I would think it unlikely, it'll be the crowning glory of his investment and plan if we become a self sustaining debt free elite club.
I suspect Mansour cares far more about winning the big trophies year in year out than being the new Arsenal. :)
I do understand the sentiment of what you're posting and I too think it's great that we're becoming sustainable and debt free - but IMO this will never be done at the expense of the first team. It hasn't so far so I'm not sure why that would change.
Just out curiosity how do you see our current conundrum with regards homegrown players? Obviously our squad is restricted but even operating without restrictions we don't have the numbers of English players required in the squad.
Fuck paying the English tax, lets bring through our own. We need to have 8 association developed players for the PL and 4 club trained for the CL? Milner, Hart, Wright and Clichy are filling 4 of those spots right now and our priority should be developing Lopes, Pozo, Rekik, Denayer, Barker, Bryne, Ambrose, Angelino etc into the first team squad, as many of them as possible in some capacity over the next few years. We can free up squad spaces by replacing the deadwood like Caballero and Sagna with a HG keeper and a player like Nathaniel Clyne and just buy the best available marquee players for the position they're needed without giving a fuck about nationality. Instead of paying in the £40m range for an English youngster when the foreign equivalent wouldn't cost half of that.
aguero93:20 said:OB1 said:aguero93:20 said:You should have read my posts, I said that I couldn't see us failing to get hard cash from CFG/ADUG if we needed it to fund a transfer. As for quotes, both Soriano and Khaldoon have said repeatedly in the last 12 months that we are now expected to live within our revenues and if we want to increase spending, we'll do it through growing revenues.
http://www.mcfc.com/News/Club-news/2014/December/Club-annual-report-2014
I'm busy so you will have to forgive me for not reading every last word of yours but the most recent that I responded to was:
"...me saying we would invest from club revenues and not Mansour's own money"
which was consistent with:
"Mansour won't be investing, you're out of your mind if you don't understand that any investment in the first team will come from our own revenues from now on."
So are you now saying that Mr A is not mad to think that Mansour might actually invest more of his own money in the first team?
I have read plenty of our senior managements' pronouncements on the club and its finances, I have a copy of the full annual report downloaded on my computer, and I fully understand them. I am also sure that these guys are serious about what they say but I do not recall one definitive statement that precludes Mansour putting his hand in his very deep pockets if he decides he wants to or needs to.
Never say never :-)
I was talking in a short term sense as in was in the context of signing Ross Barkley, however even if the external factors (ie FFP) that would seek to prevent him doing so were to disappear I would think it unlikely, it'll be the crowning glory of his investment and plan if we become a self sustaining debt free elite club.
Mister Appointment said:aguero93:20 said:Mister Appointment said:I suspect Mansour cares far more about winning the big trophies year in year out than being the new Arsenal. :)
I do understand the sentiment of what you're posting and I too think it's great that we're becoming sustainable and debt free - but IMO this will never be done at the expense of the first team. It hasn't so far so I'm not sure why that would change.
Just out curiosity how do you see our current conundrum with regards homegrown players? Obviously our squad is restricted but even operating without restrictions we don't have the numbers of English players required in the squad.
Fuck paying the English tax, lets bring through our own. We need to have 8 association developed players for the PL and 4 club trained for the CL? Milner, Hart, Wright and Clichy are filling 4 of those spots right now and our priority should be developing Lopes, Pozo, Rekik, Denayer, Barker, Bryne, Ambrose, Angelino etc into the first team squad, as many of them as possible in some capacity over the next few years. We can free up squad spaces by replacing the deadwood like Caballero and Sagna with a HG keeper and a player like Nathaniel Clyne and just buy the best available marquee players for the position they're needed without giving a fuck about nationality. Instead of paying in the £40m range for an English youngster when the foreign equivalent wouldn't cost half of that.
The flaw in your logic is that simply 'filling' the squad isn't the issue. We need players who are capable and can step in when others are injured. We've seen the discussion around Pozo not being ready. I don't think anyone argues with the idea long term that we should be adding our own youngsters into the first team squad, but not at the expense of the quality of the squad - and as it stands right now none of the players you've listed are ready (and won't be for the 15/16 season IMO).
Anyway notwithstanding all of that, Barkley represents for me the same thing as Rooney did when he came through. A once in a generation player. Missing out on him and allowing him to move to Chelsea/United would be unbelievable folly on our parts. We could in one fell swoop kill the narrative that English players can't succeed at City or that it's not a good place for homegrown players to move to by signing him and playing him. On the flipside we'd do nothing but reinforce the idea that no matter how successful we are we can't get the best English players if we let him move to the other clubs I've mentioned.
I believe this is a huge consideration for a club like City. We wish to be Barca/Real/Bayern but to be those clubs you also need to monopolise the homegrown talent in your country no matter where it's developed. Both for footballing and commercial reasons.
OB1 said:aguero93:20 said:OB1 said:I'm busy so you will have to forgive me for not reading every last word of yours but the most recent that I responded to was:
"...me saying we would invest from club revenues and not Mansour's own money"
which was consistent with:
"Mansour won't be investing, you're out of your mind if you don't understand that any investment in the first team will come from our own revenues from now on."
So are you now saying that Mr A is not mad to think that Mansour might actually invest more of his own money in the first team?
I have read plenty of our senior managements' pronouncements on the club and its finances, I have a copy of the full annual report downloaded on my computer, and I fully understand them. I am also sure that these guys are serious about what they say but I do not recall one definitive statement that precludes Mansour putting his hand in his very deep pockets if he decides he wants to or needs to.
Never say never :-)
I was talking in a short term sense as in was in the context of signing Ross Barkley, however even if the external factors (ie FFP) that would seek to prevent him doing so were to disappear I would think it unlikely, it'll be the crowning glory of his investment and plan if we become a self sustaining debt free elite club.
Last season, City generated £23 million from operating activities (before capex and financing); they paid a net £82m for the purchase of intangibles (i.e. player registrations) and Mansour invested £160m in new shares, with a realtively small net increase in the club's bank balance. And you think in the short-term it is unlikely that he will not have to invest any cash this season or next summer that won't be used to buy players?