Russian invasion of Ukraine

[metalblue]

Nothing to do with making the west feel safe. Unless we put our own troops on the ground and our own planes in the air, Ukraine is lost IMO. And there is ZERO chance of us doing that.

History will prove you right or wrong on that point but one comment I have is; this is the same rationale the US adopted after Dunkirk and choose to not get involved. Eventually they were forced to. And this is nothing if not a history lesson for us from Putin.

I’m not saying we should go in gun-ho but eventually we will get dragged into this. We are probably doing the best we can, sanctions and providing as much support as we can to Ukraine. We can always do a bit more but honestly I don’t think Putin saw this response coming from the west. So firstly Ukraine has put up a hell of a fight and surprised the Russians but they can’t keep this up on their own forever, secondly we’re inflicting damage on Russian economy but that will take time to be really felt, we just need the third part which is giving Putin enough that he can withdraw and sell it as a victory back home - this obviously relies on Putin actually wanting that and that is debatable, and if he doesn’t want it we have to face facts and we might as well get this over and done with now and go in to Ukraine and slap his shit all ways to Sunday and see what the midget **** wants to try and do next.

 

[SWP's back]

Do you REALLY have to take such an aggressive tone with everyone? Honestly, it just makes you look like a prick, and in reality I suspect you're a nice chap. Lighten up eh mate?

In “reality” I don’t surround myself with people that speak from a position of ignorance so I rarely end up feeling quite so exasperated as I do on here.

That we are a week into the invasion and people are still posting Putin lies about this being anything to do with “preventing a NATO country from bordering Russia” is beyond a joke.

And yes, we all have opinions, I base mine solely on listening to the experts that have spent their careers studying Russia and Putin. I never stop trying to learn and I’m a voracious reader on this subject. Then we get some random fucker in here who watched a Facebook video from infowars and they come on here and blame nato and I’d personally never tire of slapping their idiot faces.

 

[bluesteel]

Putin's new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions

Russian President Vladimir Putin has outlined the historical basis for his claims against Ukraine in a controversial new essay that has been likened in some quarters to a declaration of war.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

And a history podcast discussing his words on the Russian empire over the years:

Ukraine and Russia

Podcast Episode · The Rest Is History · 23/02/2022 · 1h 13m

podcasts.apple.com

Baseless my arse

Erm I said: I think that’s a pretty baseless argument about what he dreams, it’s never becoming a reality without WW3 anyway

In response to someone saying he dreams about recreating the Russian empire.

You've linked me to what he wrote about Ukraine last year... I'm still waiting for this 5000 word essay where he writes about recreating the USSR.

 

[west didsblue]

That is an excellent, though chilling article. It deserves to be read in full. Personally, I think we are living in the end times, though psychologically I have always been inclined towards negative, catastrophic thinking in the style of CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy).

My impression is that Putin behaves like a ruthless Mafia boss. Maybe I have been watching too many series like Gomorrah, but the self-destructive element suggests to me that he certainly would engulf the rest of the world in a nuclear conflagration. I think he is that far gone. Maybe he is not formally, diagnostically mad, but to me he is politically deranged (whatever that means), and is in thrall to a combustible ideology that he would sacrifice himself and the rest of us to. And I do not think that his compatriots in the Kremlin are a sufficiently restraining influence. They are probably a bunch of ‘yes’ men and women.

Should add that I sincerely hope that I am wrong about this. My wife has been going on about mundane matters today, assuming that there is a future to be had. I haven’t challenged her as English is her second language and she hasn’t been keeping up with things like I have. Maybe it’s better for her to remain oblivious.

Hope that I am making sense here. I have a problem with alcohol, am a fearful, cowardly wimp in real life, and my drinking has escalated over the last few days as I have been lying awake at night fretting about all of this, so I cannot claim to be an objective commentator.

It’s simply that old axioms like ‘pressure leads to resistance’ are presently passing through my mind and I think that Putin will lash out indiscriminately if he feels boxed in.

The last thing that I would say is that if this turns out to be the end of us as a species that we have to be on the side of right. Maybe our actions are meaningless and ultimately insignificant when carved into the larger universe, but we are right to oppose this monster, even if we die in the process of doing so.

Once again, apologies. I probably should be medicated (though is there an anti-depressant that can mitigate fears about WW3 ?) and not posting here so pessimistically.

After reading that, let me know what medication you find!

 

[RandomJ]

Increasing number of I'm alright Jack posts. Ukraine should just surrender, they should just hand over the eastern part of the country, they should just ignore the deaths of their murdered civilians so people bricking it about nuclear war can stop pissing their pants.

All very easy to say from the safety of your computer thousands of miles away. Something tells me they wouldn't be posting that bollocks if their country was next on the list.

 

[bluesteel]

In “reality” I don’t surround myself with people that speak from a position of ignorance so I rarely end up feeling quite so exasperated as I do on here.

That we are a week into the invasion and people are still posting Putin lies about this being anything to do with “preventing a NATO country from bordering Russia” is beyond a joke.

And yes, we all have opinions, I base mine solely on listening to the experts that have spent their careers studying Russia and Putin. I never stop trying to learn and I’m a voracious reader on this subject. Then we get some random fucker in here who watched a Facebook video from infowars and they come on here and blame nato and I’d personally never tire of slapping their idiot faces.

That’s why I reached out to Fiona Hill, one of America’s most clear-eyed Russia experts, someone who has studied Putin for decades, worked in both Republican and Democratic administrations and has a reputation for truth-telling, earned when she testified during impeachment hearings for her former boss, President Donald Trump.

“
I think there’s been a logical, methodical plan that goes back a very long way, at least to 2007 when he put the world, and certainly Europe, on notice that Moscow would not accept the further expansion of NATO. And then within a year in 2008 NATO gave an open door to Georgia and Ukraine. It absolutely goes back to that juncture.

Back then I was a national intelligence officer, and the National Intelligence Council was analyzing what Russia was likely to do in response to the NATO Open Door declaration. One of our assessments was that there was a real, genuine risk of some kind of preemptive Russian military action, not just confined to the annexation of Crimea, but some much larger action taken against Ukraine along with Georgia. And of course, four months after NATO’s Bucharest Summit, there was the invasion of Georgia. There wasn’t an invasion of Ukraine then because the Ukrainian government pulled back from seeking NATO membership.”

Taken from the this posted many times on this thread.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

 

[SWP's back]

“
I think there’s been a logical, methodical plan that goes back a very long way, at least to 2007 when he put the world, and certainly Europe, on notice that Moscow would not accept the further expansion of NATO. And then within a year in 2008 NATO gave an open door to Georgia and Ukraine. It absolutely goes back to that juncture.

Back then I was a national intelligence officer, and the National Intelligence Council was analyzing what Russia was likely to do in response to the NATO Open Door declaration. One of our assessments was that there was a real, genuine risk of some kind of preemptive Russian military action, not just confined to the annexation of Crimea, but some much larger action taken against Ukraine along with Georgia. And of course, four months after NATO’s Bucharest Summit, there was the invasion of Georgia. There wasn’t an invasion of Ukraine then because the Ukrainian government pulled back from seeking NATO membership.”

Taken from the this posted many times on this thread.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Yeah you need to tread all the way through, her very next paragraphs are:

“It’s reestablishing Russian dominance of what Russia sees as the Russian “Imperium.” I’m saying this very specifically because the lands of the Soviet Union didn’t cover all of the territories that were once part of the Russian Empire. So that should give us pause.

Putin has articulated an idea of there being a “Russky Mir” or a “Russian World.” The recent essay he published about Ukraine and Russia states the Ukrainian and Russian people are “one people,” a “yedinyi narod.” He’s saying Ukrainians and Russians are one and the same. This idea of a Russian World means re-gathering all the Russian-speakers in different places that belonged at some point to the Russian tsardom.

I’ve kind of quipped about this but I also worry about it in all seriousness — that Putin’s been down in the archives of the Kremlin during Covid looking through old maps and treaties and all the different borders that Russia has had over the centuries. He’s said, repeatedly, that Russian and European borders have changed many times. And in his speeches, he’s gone after various former Russian and Soviet leaders, he’s gone after Lenin and he’s gone after the communists, because in his view they ruptured the Russian empire, they lost Russian lands in the revolution, and yes, Stalin brought some of them back into the fold again like the Baltic States and some of the lands of Ukraine that had been divided up during World War II, but they were lost again with the dissolution of the USSR. Putin’s view is that borders change, and so the borders of the old Russian imperium are still in play for Moscow to dominate now.”

So now don’t you look a pillock.

 

[metalblue]

Baseless argument? He wrote a 5000 word essay about it last year you ignorant twatbanana.

Every time you open your mouth, you take away any doubt whatsoever that you haven’t got the faintest clue what you’re talking about.

5000 words? Pathetic, least Hitler wrote a book not some under(lenin)grad dissertation. If you’re going to destroy the world at least do it justice.

 

[SWP's back]

That’s why I reached out to Fiona Hill, one of America’s most clear-eyed Russia experts, someone who has studied Putin for decades, worked in both Republican and Democratic administrations and has a reputation for truth-telling, earned when she testified during impeachment hearings for her former boss, President Donald Trump.

“
I think there’s been a logical, methodical plan that goes back a very long way, at least to 2007 when he put the world, and certainly Europe, on notice that Moscow would not accept the further expansion of NATO. And then within a year in 2008 NATO gave an open door to Georgia and Ukraine. It absolutely goes back to that juncture.

Back then I was a national intelligence officer, and the National Intelligence Council was analyzing what Russia was likely to do in response to the NATO Open Door declaration. One of our assessments was that there was a real, genuine risk of some kind of preemptive Russian military action, not just confined to the annexation of Crimea, but some much larger action taken against Ukraine along with Georgia. And of course, four months after NATO’s Bucharest Summit, there was the invasion of Georgia. There wasn’t an invasion of Ukraine then because the Ukrainian government pulled back from seeking NATO membership.”

Taken from the this posted many times on this thread.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Read. The. Whole. Fucking. Interview. Twatbanana.

She li tee rally goes on to say he wants to empire build:

“It’s reestablishing Russian dominance of what Russia sees as the Russian “Imperium.” I’m saying this very specifically because the lands of the Soviet Union didn’t cover all of the territories that were once part of the Russian Empire. So that should give us pause.

Putin has articulated an idea of there being a “Russky Mir” or a “Russian World.” The recent essay he published about Ukraine and Russia states the Ukrainian and Russian people are “one people,” a “yedinyi narod.” He’s saying Ukrainians and Russians are one and the same. This idea of a Russian World means re-gathering all the Russian-speakers in different places that belonged at some point to the Russian tsardom.

I’ve kind of quipped about this but I also worry about it in all seriousness — that Putin’s been down in the archives of the Kremlin during Covid looking through old maps and treaties and all the different borders that Russia has had over the centuries. He’s said, repeatedly, that Russian and European borders have changed many times. And in his speeches, he’s gone after various former Russian and Soviet leaders, he’s gone after Lenin and he’s gone after the communists, because in his view they ruptured the Russian empire, they lost Russian lands in the revolution, and yes, Stalin brought some of them back into the fold again like the Baltic States and some of the lands of Ukraine that had been divided up during World War II, but they were lost again with the dissolution of the USSR. Putin’s view is that borders change, and so the borders of the old Russian imperium are still in play for Moscow to dominate now.”

 

[Blue Smarties]

Four points mate.

1. Before suggesting a course of action, it's really good to have a plan as to what your are trying to achieve and how realistic it is. Having no idea where you're headed is never a great idea.

2. Downing arms and getting around a negotiation table is not simply surrendering.

3. Whilst the west continues to apply the severest of sanctions, it is not a question of Ukraine having to live under Russian rule. All sorts of compromises could be possible.

4. It's got bugger-all to do with "just to make us feel safe". Perhaps you missed that.

Fuck me, I know @Scottyboi slaps rags in town with sandbags but I didn't realise he was fronting the strategy in Ukraine's fight against Russia. Go on Scotty boi - fucking give it em.