Russian Plane crash

[idahoblues]

Oooo pilot fight ;)

Thanks! Just spit the last of my tea out laughing

 

[Zin 'messiah' Zimmer]

No offence mate but you need to do a bit of research into ice accretion.
I'm currently in Montreal working with Bombardier in preparation for our introduction of the CS and we are on Flight Test Vehicle 7 every day. It is still doing ice sweep tests so has very odd looking leading edges on the fin, stab and the parts of the wing leading edges that are not anti iced. The leading edges have about two to three inches of material added in the shape of maximum ice accretion. It's actually a concave shape with a large bulge on the lower pressure side of the surface and a smaller bulge on the higher pressure side, so opposite on stab to mainplane and symmetrical on the fin. Talking to the flight test engineers, they say the shape is calculated by CFD and then they flew the aircraft in severe icing to confirm the shape before building the moulds.
This represents the maximum ice that can physically build up on the leading edge of the surface. It does not equal all the ice that builds up on the airframe. The weight increase that you talk about is not only on the empennage. It's calculated over the entire airframe. So the increased airspeeds required after prolonged flight in icing are for weight increase on the entire airframe and drag increase due to increase parasite drag of the ice. Which is not considered a trim issue as much of that weight is on the upper and lower fuselage. The leading edge ice weight is only a small % of the total additional weight.

This is also true for the Embraer Ejets according to my friends in Sao Jose dos Campos and is also true for the Avro RJ which has tail anti ice according to the miserable Jocks at Prestwick.
One of the advantages of moving off line flying and into the technical and training world is I get to talk directly to the manufacturers and can kill the myths that grow over time based on partial knowledge and often incorrect assumptions.

This is very different to the tail ice stall tendency of some smaller aircraft types that the FAA were big on a couple of years ago after a couple of accidents. In those cases the problem was not weight but aerodynamic effects on the tail. This is not the case with the 73 which has a tail designed to carry the maximum possible ice accretion without compromising control.


I'll wait for the FDR but this incident was almost certainly caused by mishandling the aircraft after a high go around (can often cause confusion) probably due to windshear.

I was waiting until Maverick countered before commenting, I'm at ease now (:

I don't know, one yank successfully lands an Airbus on the Hudson and suddenly they are all Edward wyer!!!

 

[Proy]

Looking at the last CCTV footage, it was a distance I know, but that looked a lot like a microburst?

Plane was nose down to me, can't have been a stall?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

No offence mate but you need to do a bit of research into ice accretion.
I'm currently in Montreal working with Bombardier in preparation for our introduction of the CS and we are on Flight Test Vehicle 7 every day. It is still doing ice sweep tests so has very odd looking leading edges on the fin, stab and the parts of the wing leading edges that are not anti iced. The leading edges have about two to three inches of material added in the shape of maximum ice accretion. It's actually a concave shape with a large bulge on the lower pressure side of the surface and a smaller bulge on the higher pressure side, so opposite on stab to mainplane and symmetrical on the fin. Talking to the flight test engineers, they say the shape is calculated by CFD and then they flew the aircraft in severe icing to confirm the shape before building the moulds.
This represents the maximum ice that can physically build up on the leading edge of the surface. It does not equal all the ice that builds up on the airframe. The weight increase that you talk about is not only on the empennage. It's calculated over the entire airframe. So the increased airspeeds required after prolonged flight in icing are for weight increase on the entire airframe and drag increase due to increase parasite drag of the ice. Which is not considered a trim issue as much of that weight is on the upper and lower fuselage. The leading edge ice weight is only a small % of the total additional weight.

This is also true for the Embraer Ejets according to my friends in Sao Jose dos Campos and is also true for the Avro RJ which has tail anti ice according to the miserable Jocks at Prestwick.
One of the advantages of moving off line flying and into the technical and training world is I get to talk directly to the manufacturers and can kill the myths that grow over time based on partial knowledge and often incorrect assumptions.

This is very different to the tail ice stall tendency of some smaller aircraft types that the FAA were big on a couple of years ago after a couple of accidents. In those cases the problem was not weight but aerodynamic effects on the tail. This is not the case with the 73 which has a tail designed to carry the maximum possible ice accretion without compromising control.


I'll wait for the FDR but this incident was almost certainly caused by mishandling the aircraft after a high go around (can often cause confusion) probably due to windshear.

No offence taken, because what you talking about is not exactly what I was talking about in my second "chain of events/lack of experience" scenario.

I was talking about pilots who were flummoxed by weather conditions with which they were unfamiliar, wind speeds and penalties with which they might not have had much experience, and a chain of events that led to a pilot caused accident due to mishandling.

Given those circumstances, they may have put themselves in an untenable situation, which (as you opined) could have led to a fatal error. You said stall on the go-around, I said stall on the approach. Same same, just different issues at play.

I'm glad we have smart guys like you working with some of the manufacturers on problems like this. Hopefully, it will bear fruit in safer, and more manageable, aircraft to fly in the future...not that I think I will see any from those manufacturers.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Initial findings show this was purely a mishandled level off rather than weather or ice related.
Very sad for all concerned.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Initial findings show this was purely a mishandled level off rather than weather or ice related.
Very sad for all concerned.

Just saw this video while looking at other aircraft incidents, and I remembered this discussion of ice vs stall vs microburst/windshear. This video discusses all three (!) yet the findings showed something different...



Somatogravic illusion! You don’t hear that cause of a transport category aircraft crash very often!

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

Funny how some people are scared of flying when the people in charge of the planes are highly educated and qualified people who are tested to the max regularly but will think nothing of getting in a taxi with a driver who sometimes look like they haven’t had a wash in a week let alone had an education or are
been regularly tested.

 

[purplenose]

Funny how some people are scared of flying when the people in charge of the planes are highly educated and qualified people who are tested to the max regularly but will think nothing of getting in a taxi with a driver who sometimes look like they haven’t had a wash in a week let alone had an education or are
been regularly tested.

Yes but many of them are mad as hatters.

 

[Machiavelli]

Funny how some people are scared of flying when the people in charge of the planes are highly educated and qualified people who are tested to the max regularly but will think nothing of getting in a taxi with a driver who sometimes look like they haven’t had a wash in a week let alone had an education or are
been regularly tested.

You’ve never had the pleasure of riding in @Two Gun Bob ‘s chariot.

 

[laughing gravy]

and people keep saying there safe......