safe standing psychology.

[crizack]

in response and in agreement with a lot of the comments on the 'ejections in 109 thread', i have been thinking of why it is ironic that the only people asking others to sit down are the stewards. The time at a football match when a person, row of people or a block of people are most likely to be harmed is when celebrating after a goal, thus making standing when a goal is scored subject to ejection aswell? or is that allowed because the majority of the fans are standing when a goal is scored?

It's in our psychology and dna makeup to follow the majority. If the club can get the majority of it's fans to think that most of the fans want to sit, then we will accept it and think to ourselves ''i'd better not stand, because the person behind me wants to sit and will be annoyed with me. Thats what the club told me.'' whereas the person behind him is thinking the same, so it is like a domino effect where people choose to sit so they dont upset those behind them, where in fact, those behind them may want to stand aswell.

How and why is it fair for a group of 100 stewards and 1 boss to demand that 1000 people should sit down?. This is the main point i have about the concerns of the majority over the minority. Surely the paying fans are the backbone of this club. A club can have all the money in the world but it is not a club without the support of it's fans. Support is a two way thing. If we want to be pampered and made to feel safe, looked after and told to do sit down when we are spoken to, then im pretty sure we'd pay for a dominatrix. I pay to watch football and think that if a concise and detailed report was put together and a fans questionairre (for EVERY single season card/ticket holder of all the top 2 leagues teams) was taken out, then, it would be fair to tell us to remain seated.

the only people i saw moaning the other night about anyone standing were stewards. Bullying people into sitting on orders by their boss, who is peter fletcher, also seen as the end of level boss in a video game who everyone hates but he is always their everytime you play. I really cannot see why the government do not adopt a safe standing policy for the top 2 league teams. The only thing i can think of which may or may not be the only argument is that we now llive in a 'where theres a blaim, theres a claim' culture.

There are appropriate safety measures which are in place across the world to make sure those attending football matches or any other sport events are safe when standing. If, in the case of hillsbourough, the stand is over full and the weight of the fans is too much for the foundations, then yes, it will end up with people being seriously hurt or like the tragedy of the 96 who died. We have came a long way since then, with stronger policing measures and 'safer' standing measures which can be put in place. There has not been a poll on any football fans regarding this subject and has been dictated to by those who have probably never seen inside a football stadium. I personally believe all standing stands should and would be brought back if it was the genreal consensus that the majority of the fans want to stand.

Unfortunate as it is for the Health and Safety boffins who bring in these plans and rules, aswelll as the law lords, i want to support my team with all my heart. if i can walk safely to get the bus to the city centre, walk through the city ccentre to get the bus to the ground, walk around the ground to my seat without needing to call an ambulance, then please, let me stand for 90 minutes in the same spot as i'm pretty sure i wont be in life threatening danger.

If people want to sit, then let them, if people want to stand then let them. Just give fans a choice so there is no arguing and please Manchester City, please can you get rid of Mr.Fletcher.

 

[dennishasdoneit]

in response and in agreement with a lot of the comments on the 'ejections in 109 thread', i have been thinking of why it is ironic that the only people asking others to sit down are the stewards. The time at a football match when a person, row of people or a block of people are most likely to be harmed is when celebrating after a goal, thus making standing when a goal is scored subject to ejection aswell? or is that allowed because the majority of the fans are standing when a goal is scored?

It's in our psychology and dna makeup to follow the majority. If the club can get the majority of it's fans to think that most of the fans want to sit, then we will accept it and think to ourselves ''i'd better not stand, because the person behind me wants to sit and will be annoyed with me. Thats what the club told me.'' whereas the person behind him is thinking the same, so it is like a domino effect where people choose to sit so they dont upset those behind them, where in fact, those behind them may want to stand aswell.

How and why is it fair for a group of 100 stewards and 1 boss to demand that 1000 people should sit down?. This is the main point i have about the concerns of the majority over the minority. Surely the paying fans are the backbone of this club. A club can have all the money in the world but it is not a club without the support of it's fans. Support is a two way thing. If we want to be pampered and made to feel safe, looked after and told to do sit down when we are spoken to, then im pretty sure we'd pay for a dominatrix. I pay to watch football and think that if a concise and detailed report was put together and a fans questionairre (for EVERY single season card/ticket holder of all the top 2 leagues teams) was taken out, then, it would be fair to tell us to remain seated.

the only people i saw moaning the other night about anyone standing were stewards. Bullying people into sitting on orders by their boss, who is peter fletcher, also seen as the end of level boss in a video game who everyone hates but he is always their everytime you play. I really cannot see why the government do not adopt a safe standing policy for the top 2 league teams. The only thing i can think of which may or may not be the only argument is that we now llive in a 'where theres a blaim, theres a claim' culture.

There are appropriate safety measures which are in place across the world to make sure those attending football matches or any other sport events are safe when standing. If, in the case of hillsbourough, the stand is over full and the weight of the fans is too much for the foundations, then yes, it will end up with people being seriously hurt or like the tragedy of the 96 who died. We have came a long way since then, with stronger policing measures and 'safer' standing measures which can be put in place. There has not been a poll on any football fans regarding this subject and has been dictated to by those who have probably never seen inside a football stadium. I personally believe all standing stands should and would be brought back if it was the genreal consensus that the majority of the fans want to stand.

Unfortunate as it is for the Health and Safety boffins who bring in these plans and rules, aswelll as the law lords, i want to support my team with all my heart. if i can walk safely to get the bus to the city centre, walk through the city ccentre to get the bus to the ground, walk around the ground to my seat without needing to call an ambulance, then please, let me stand for 90 minutes in the same spot as i'm pretty sure i wont be in life threatening danger.

If people want to sit, then let them, if people want to stand then let them. Just give fans a choice so there is no arguing and please Manchester City, please can you get rid of Mr.Fletcher.

Spot on. Rip the fooking seats out and get safe standing back. the poznan and any goal celebration make a mockery of the safety issue.i stand at every away match without fail.everyone does.its about time the clubs in this country sorted the situation out.its a disgrace! cos its football its ok to bring in your stupid,idiotic rules on no standing...if its a pop concert in the same stadium do the same rules apply? do they bollocks.whole thing was a money making scam anyway dreamed up by tory capitalists who had cornered the market in the supply of plastic seating to grounds around the country.

can,t remember his name now-one of thatchers cronies-his family are probably still dining out on the killing they made from the contracts they obtained to fill; every ground with plastic-how convenient the taylor report suggested just that.

is it a safety issue to stand at rugby or cricket? or at non league football? or womens football? is it bollocks! why are we even putting up with all this shit..after all these years? the heart and soul has been ripped out of football. i for one want it back.now.

 

[Bibinho]

i posted this on the other thread but i dont think it got noticed this is a article from the gaudian in december 2010 very good one at that

Football supporters have called for their clubs to be allowed to reintroduce terracing to stadiums.
The Liberal Democrat MP Don Foster has tabled a private member's Bill seeking freedom for clubs to construct standing areas within stadiums at all levels of the game, giving renewed impetus to an issue that brings together fans of all clubs from Manchester United downwards.

Stadiums in the top two divisions in England have to be all-seated, a requirement that came out of the Taylor report into the Hillsborough disaster in 1989. But there is a groundswell of support for change, headed by the Football Supporters' Federation. Of their 180,000 members, 90 per cent are in favour, while in Scotland a survey produced by another fans' group returned a similar level of support.

The Liberal Democrats have been in favour of allowing the reintroduction of standing for the last two years, and their involvement in the Coalition has raised supporters' hopes. Mr Foster is a long-term backer of the move, and he claims that such areas would now be safe, secure, allow more fans into grounds and lead to cheaper tickets.

His views have been endorsed by the FSF and Independent Manchester United Supporters Association (Imusa). Malcolm Clarke, chairman of the FSF, said: "All the evidence is that a large number of fans want it. It is possible to have modern standing areas that are completely safe and give fans choice. It is a customer care problem. It is about choice. Large numbers of people are standing and that shows the level of demand."

Mark Longden, chairman of Imusa, is also a firm believer. He said: "It was one of the founding reasons for our organisation in the first place. We have won all the safety arguments. Now the authorities are saying it is about security, but CCTV can work on standing areas.

"It is a massive issue and has been one for years and years. If they do it in Germany it must be safe. Eventually the authorities will get the hang of it."
The Westfalenstadion in Dortmund has the largest terrace in Europe, holding 24,454 fans for matches in Germany's Bundesliga. For European games (standing is banned in Uefa competitions) seats are installed, which takes a couple of days. Schalke, who play in Gelsenkirchen, also have a terrace that has a barrier on each step in which flip seats are installed. The barriers prevent crushing. It means more fans can get into grounds and the clubs charge lower prices – it costs £7.50 to stand at a Schalke game.

The Premier League is happy with the status quo, pointing to the increase in numbers attending games in the top flight in England since all-seater stadiums were introduced, and a greater diversity among spectators, too.

In response to Mr Foster's urgings, the Sports minister has written to the football authorities to canvass opinion, but in a debate in Westminster Hall yesterday Hugh Robertson did little to raise hopes of a change in the law.
He told MPs: "I am not convinced at this stage that a compelling case has been made to change the policy on standing areas.

"There is a balance to be struck. We are in the process of collating football authorities' responses. I am keeping an open mind, but to be honest there is no groundswell of opinion from the football authorities in favour of a change.
"I think that they are just as scarred by the Hillsborough experience as many of us who are or have been in government. That is a powerful backdrop and should always be so. There is considerable nervousness about moving, given that backdrop."

The Culture, Media and Sport Committee will consider the issue next year as part of a wide-ranging inquiry into the governance of football.
Proponents of the move suggest that the new systems being used in places like Germany, Austria and North America ensure that it would be safe to stand. "We do not want a return to large unsafe areas of terracing," said Mr Clarke. "We don't want to return to anything. This is about moving forward with new design.

Mr Foster's Bill is unlikely to lead to a change in the law, but this is an issue that strikes a chord with large numbers of supporters. "We just need one big player to break ranks," said Mr Longden. "It is catering for what customers want, and isn't this government supposed to be all about choice?"

 

[crizack]

how do we go around getting an all standing stand? protest about fletcher? petition? it's all god and well for me to be able to put it on here and for points of blue etc. Something needs to be done or we will lose what little atmosphere we have left.

 

[bringer678]

how do we go around getting an all standing stand? protest about fletcher? petition? it's all god and well for me to be able to put it on here and for points of blue etc. Something needs to be done or we will lose what little atmosphere we have left.

http://www.fsf.org.uk/petitions/safestanding.php?id=&page=sign This is the FSF's one.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/1908 And this is the new one which is more likely to work. If it gets over 100,000 signatures and it is feasable it will be decided upon in Parliament.

 

[crizack]

hill 16 at croke park.

 

[Deleted member 14625]

Die Südtribüne, 24000 Borussia Dortmund fans, safe standing!

-- Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:04 pm --

[bigimg]http://www.hamburg-web.de/fotos/original/11856-Groeste-Stehtribuene-Europas.jpg[/bigimg]<br /><br />-- Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:09 pm --<br /><br />I agree too. What's dangerous about standing there watching the game whilst singing and clapping every now and again? The dangerous bit of being in a football stadium is when we score a goal and celebrate like mad frogs on a box, or when we do the Poznań. I've had numerous injuries after celebrating a goal at a football stadium including a bloody nose and a giant bruise on my shin. If there was safe standing I wouldn't have ever got these injuries because the reason I got them was down to the current UN-SAFE SEATING! Plus in most stadiums I seriously do not fit in the seats as I am a very tall man, so I have to stand.

But when I'm standing there watching the game I'm not a hazard to myself or anyone else!

 

[akcity]

I've had this debate with Peter Fletcher on many an occasion back in the day when theu used to make the South Stand sit down, even closing rows for any one game.
Each time he hides behind the FLA directive that is upheld by Manchester City Council's safety officer.
The thing being that his hands are tied and he did confirm that he would have no issue if the law were changed and standing (either passive or through safe standing) were allowed he would not dispute it, he merely carries out the law.
What we need to do, as fans, is to lobby our MP's - even try and get it through this new E-Petition thingy so that it HAS to be debated in Parliament.
The other alternative? Relocate to the South Stand or the Singing Section where passive standing is tollerated.

 

[crizack]

i am in the southstand and feel sorry for those who cannot stand at the match

 

[southaustralianblue]

The hypocrisy for me lies in the fact that the club is encouraging the posnan, even to the extent of those embarrassing 'how to do the posnan' t-shirts', and are flouting their own safety rules. This is more about creating an entertainment experience comparable to going to the theatre rather than any safety issues.

Surely they could trial a limited standing area, with plenty of stewards in case of problems to see how it goes

 

[akcity]

The hypocrisy for me lies in the fact that the club is encouraging the posnan, even to the extent of those embarrassing 'how to do the posnan' t-shirts', and are flouting their own safety rules. This is more about creating an entertainment experience comparable to going to the theatre rather than any safety issues.

Surely they could trial a limited standing area, with plenty of stewards in case of problems to see how it goes

Not without the law being changed. As for encouraging the Poznan, that is a goal celebration, nothing wrong with being on your feet during a goal celebration.

 

[bluemike]

Standing at a football match is right.
The youngsters who have never experienced it would notice the
difference in atmosphere if it ever was allowed to happen again.

 

[BETTER-DEAD-THAN-RED]

Standing at a football match is right.
The youngsters who have never experienced it would notice the
difference in atmosphere if it ever was allowed to happen again.

i agree with this i have moved my seasoncard from colin bell level 3 to south stand 112. for my first ever standing game vs swansea.

i have to admit it does feel right, i loved it and was uspset to hear there was trouble in 109 with standing up. in my eyes the hole of the bottom tier (north, south, east and west) should be allowed to stand.

i understand some people do want to sit so they can all have the hole of tier 2 and 3.

cant wait for next game

 

[Deleted member 14625]

I've had this debate with Peter Fletcher on many an occasion back in the day when theu used to make the South Stand sit down, even closing rows for any one game.
Each time he hides behind the FLA directive that is upheld by Manchester City Council's safety officer.
The thing being that his hands are tied and he did confirm that he would have no issue if the law were changed and standing (either passive or through safe standing) were allowed he would not dispute it, he merely carries out the law.
What we need to do, as fans, is to lobby our MP's - even try and get it through this new E-Petition thingy so that it HAS to be debated in Parliament.
The other alternative? Relocate to the South Stand or the Singing Section where passive standing is tollerated.

I agree with your first bit. I think we hace to contact the club but also go above the club to MCC and the Govt. This has to happen!

But I can't agree with your very last part. Judging off the 9000 at the Old Trafford League Cup semi the other season, who were ALL stood up, and at least 15000 who were stood up at the Wembley semi and final of the FA Cup... the 1800 seats in the South Stand and the 1000 seats in 110+111 are nowhere near enough seats to house all the fans in our stadium who want to stand up to watch football.<br /><br />-- Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:07 pm --<br /><br />

Standing at a football match is right.
The youngsters who have never experienced it would notice the
difference in atmosphere if it ever was allowed to happen again.

i agree with this i have moved my seasoncard from colin bell level 3 to south stand 112. for my first ever standing game vs swansea.

i have to admit it does feel right, i loved it and was uspset to hear there was trouble in 109 with standing up. in my eyes the hole of the bottom tier (north, south, east and west) should be allowed to stand.

i understand some people do want to sit so they can all have the hole of tier 2 and 3.

cant wait for next game

If safe standing terraces came to the Etihad I would DEMAND that it included all of East Stand Level 1 and South Stand Level 1. I would be EXTREMELY upset if it didn't include me in 105. I want to stand but want to have my Kippax view at the side of the pitch. I'm not asking for much really. Maine Road Kippax fans were never asked about whether they wanted their noise moved behind the goal. I'll put up with shit views at away games, but I want a Kippax view at the Etihad.

 

[bringer678]

They allow it in all English leagues(Inc. all rugby leagues) except after 4 years in the top 2 leagues it is suddenly "dangerous!"

 

[beermusic]

its actually not said too often by those that would be responsible for change, but the main reason anyone died in terrace disasters was because of the fences or segregation, not because of standing per se. ok, so we've all been in crush situations back in the day but they always gloss over the fence issue when discussing safe standing - it doesn't make any sense that lower league stadiums have packed terracing on big cup games and yet a state-of-the art stadium with proper stewarding and security such as most PL grounds can't allow it. i've been injured more times jumping up and down in seated stadia than at any time in the standing days. Either standing is safe or it isnt - the only reason anyone panics in England is that they think it will be a return to the bad old days. even though most offs inside grounds in the late 80s/90s happened in the seats anyway.

More to the point, they allow standing at stadium concerts, where FAR more people by percentage are pissed/drugged up than are on an average matchday, yet no one sees that as potential evidence that standing can and should be allowed to return at football.

still, i won't hold my breath. and i am encouraged by the atmosphere on Monday night .. don't remember previous season openers like that.

 

[Bluemoonbaldboy]

Having been a season ticket holder on the Kippax I loved it and miss it.

That said as long as Hillsborough is in living memory standing won't happen. Yes it was the layout of the pens and the police that caused it but it won't change the mind set the minute anything close gets the green light it will be challenged in the courts by the families who have said they are utterly opposed to standing in any form.

There is also a real danger that people standing in the areas where the club don't tolerate it could end up costing the club the safety certificate for those blocks where it is happening. Well that would solve the problem as they would be closed. I've seen the reverse side of this at Chester where the club has had to prove they can manage crowds etc.. and the certificate has increased the percentages allowed in the ground to now a little under 4000 in a stadium that holds just under 6000

 

[jrb]

What's the difference between these.........

And these.......

(Other new stadiums, such as the new Galatasaray stadium, are going down the safe standing rout)

Apart from the seating law, which is a farse, it's the extra cost of installing these safe standing seats and the lost revenue afterwards.

Clubs might harp on about having their hands tied by the law, but I'm sure they've looked at the financial figures of installing safe standing seats in one or more stands/sections in their stadiums, and they don't like it. It will cost them too much money in the short and 'long term'.

 

[ultimateharold]

What's the difference between these.........

And these.......

(Other new stadiums, such as the new Galatasaray stadium, are going down the safe standing rout)

Apart from the seating law, which is a farse, it's the extra cost of installing these safe standing seats and the lost revenue afterwards.

Clubs might harp on about having their hands tied by the law, but I'm sure they've looked at the financial figures of installing safe standing seats in one or more stands/sections in their stadiums, and they don't like it. It will cost them too much money in the short and 'long term'.

Disagree:

Lets say for every seat, you have 1.5 standees.

You could reduce the price of the standing so that the added capacity makes no difference to the total income. Then add on more people there to buy food/beer (Granted, the catering would have to be improved, vastly), and standing could infact, generate more cash.

 

[bringer678]

What's the difference between these.........

And these.......

(Other new stadiums, such as the new Galatasaray stadium, are going down the safe standing rout)

Apart from the seating law, which is a farse, it's the extra cost of installing these safe standing seats and the lost revenue afterwards.

Clubs might harp on about having their hands tied by the law, but I'm sure they've looked at the financial figures of installing safe standing seats in one or more stands/sections in their stadiums, and they don't like it. It will cost them too much money in the short and 'long term'.

They would be able to fit more people in the stadium and earn more money. Even if they charge less money per ticket. It's a no brainer really!