Socialists.

[moonshiner]

If you're not a socialist by the age of 18 you don't have a heart.
If you're still a socialist by the age of 30 you don't have a brain!


Discuss. :/

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

Always been a socialist ever since I was old enough to make a rational decision,despite both parents being avid Conservatives.
Still am to this day,and really can't see me changing anytime soon,despite the parody of true socialism now paraded by the current labour party.
Just seems to me to be the fairest,most compassionate and humanist way of running society.
I was fortunate enough,(through a combination of parental support,great mentors and a little hard study),to achieve 2 double-first degrees and go on to attain a well-paid job,but am acutely aware that further education is becoming increasingly financially unviable for a lot of talented kids from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Socialism will never be a "utopia" - no system responsible for the eclectic and diverse range of humanity ever will,but for me personally it does seem at least to offer a fairer and more inclusive blueprint.

 

[stonerblue]

Always been a socialist ever since I was old enough to make a rational decision,despite both parents being avid Conservatives.
Still am to this day,and really can't see me changing anytime soon,despite the parody of true socialism now paraded by the current labour party.
Just seems to me to be the fairest,most compassionate and humanist way of running society.
I was fortunate enough,(through a combination of parental support,great mentors and a little hard study),to achieve 2 double-first degrees and go on to attain a well-paid job,but am acutely aware that further education is becoming increasingly financially unviable for a lot of talented kids from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Socialism will never be a "utopia" - no system responsible for the eclectic and diverse range of humanity ever will,but for me personally it does seem at least to offer a fairer and more inclusive blueprint.

what he said.

 

[Knight1979]

Few economies are purely socialist. Even the Scandinavian countries that have become the envy of the world in terms of quality of life are mixed economies with capitalism driving the social services they enjoy. I just read that because these countries support a high living wage, Scandinavian private companies have become more competitive because the subsidy of cheap labor costs have been removed. This has forced these companies to become more creative in terms of operational cost savings and innovation. A unique case of capitalism and socialism thriving off one another.

I like socialism because its fundamentally anti social Darwinism (which is sick). However many human achievements have been realized under capitalist conditions. Its a fine balance of creating a society of social equity yet one that promotes human achievement and innovation.

Capitalism has become so imbedded in our conscious and sub-conscious that it would probably be impossible for any of us to imagine life without it. Its been a subtle religion to all of us since we came out of the womb! My friend touts that he is a marxist.......he has $14,000 in credit card debt, he's no marxist.....he's a capitalism's wet dream!!

 

[newcrossblue]

My friend touts that he is a marxist.......he has $14,000 in credit card debt, he's no marxist.....he's a capitalism's wet dream!!

You obviously don't know what a Marxist is

 

[Knight1979]

enlighten me

I'm supposed to deduct that you obviously do know? Did I ever say I did know? I was just pointing out the irony that one of my "marxists" friends throws money he doesn't have at institutions that apparently stand for what he is against. So what is your point? Or will await another smug quip that reveals nothing.

 

[newcrossblue]

enlighten me

I'm supposed to deduct that you obviously do know? Did I ever say I did know? I was just pointing out the irony that one of my "marxists" friends throws money he doesn't have at institutions that apparently stand for what he is against. So what is your point? Or will await another smug quip that reveals nothing.

No, you're the smug fucker. Giving it shit about your "marxist" friend, who can't be a Marxist because he has a credit card.

"Did I ever say I did know" is your question above. Well if you don't fucking know how can you make the statement "He's no Marxist."

As for Marxists. We believe that all members of society should benefit from society's wealth. Often the means of producing wealth are the same. It's the distribution of wealth that's important. But wealth can only be distributed effectively with common ownership of the means of production. Otherwise you end up with the great money trick - read the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists for that, if you haven't already.

So essentially, your friend enjoys some of the benefits of modern society. But because he is a VICTIM of capitalism not only does he pay the capitalist producers and retailers for this but also the capitalist financiers. However, your friend believes there is a better way of organising society which is more democratic and more just. There's no contradiction in any of that.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

If you're not a socialist by the age of 18 you don't have a heart.
If you're still a socialist by the age of 30 you don't have a brain!


Discuss. :/

or
If you're not a socialist by the age of 18 you haven't been indoctrinated.
If you're still a socialist by the age of 30 you'll never know what freedom is.

Discuss.


Note: Not necessarily my views but another slant on the original post.

 

[Knight1979]

Re:

enlighten me

I'm supposed to deduct that you obviously do know? Did I ever say I did know? I was just pointing out the irony that one of my "marxists" friends throws money he doesn't have at institutions that apparently stand for what he is against. So what is your point? Or will await another smug quip that reveals nothing.

No, you're the smug fucker. Giving it shit about your "marxist" friend, who can't be a Marxist because he has a credit card.

"Did I ever say I did know" is your question above. Well if you don't fucking know how can you make the statement "He's no Marxist."

As for Marxists. We believe that all members of society should benefit from society's wealth. Often the means of producing wealth are the same. It's the distribution of wealth that's important. But wealth can only be distributed effectively with common ownership of the means of production. Otherwise you end up with the great money trick - read the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists for that, if you haven't already.

So essentially, your friend enjoys some of the benefits of modern society. But because he is a VICTIM of capitalism not only does he pay the capitalist producers and retailers for this but also the capitalist financiers. However, your friend believes there is a better way of organising society which is more democratic and more just. There's no contradiction in any of that.

Jesus christ there is no need to engage in insults or dismiss what I'm saying. I agree with you to an extent that we are victims but at what point can we control that? My friend is a lawyer who makes decent wage and has his cards maxed out on ipods, clothes and general useless, frivolous consumption.

Families who work 80 hours a week on minimum wage are the real victims. They are the modern day, bottom rung serfs who do have to put things like food and bills on credit. They don't have time to become informed or become involved in their community and that's part of the whole plan, I understand that and think its wrong. My friend should know better and he knows he is responsible for putting himself in the situation he's in. He understands the hypocrisy of his habits. Its not like he's saying, "Man I'm a victim of captalism....did you see my new macbook? its great!" Why don't I have the same perceived wants and needs as him?

On the other hand I know marxists who grown their own food and sew their own clothes and who are very active in their communities. Who do you think I would find more credible? I'm saying we do have certain, limited control as to how pervasive the capitalist macro-structure affects our everyday lives. I don't consider myself a full blown marxists, but I support a strong living wage and social programs like universal healthcare. I happen to live in a state which is run on a regressive sales tax and I wish I could enjoy the social programs you have in the UK.

I read a lot of Chomsky and he is brilliant in outlining the global capitalist framework and how pervasive it is in our everyday lives. However he also urges the reader to become more involved in their community and to be responsible consumers. I think my friend would rather sit on his ass and be a victim. We are probably on the same page man so no need to get pissy. I also recognize that I'm not immune to hypocrisy either, none of us are.

 

[newcrossblue]

Lots of stuff

Seeing as you seem decent enough, take the following in the spirit it's meant.

Being a marxist has nothing to do with growing your own food and making your own clothes. But you seem to be a decent enough left-liberal. I have my ipod, macbook pro, Bose sound system, and all the other shit that goes with it, and I'd like a world where everyone had these items if they wanted them. Being a Marxist basically means recognising that doing a bit in your own community is OK, in fact it is admirable, but it won't change society and you're only dealing with the symptoms of capitalism. Hence Marx and Engels describing Owen as Utopian Socialist.

Think you'll generally find that the Europeans have better social programmes because the capitalists here were afraid of Socialism spreading from the Soviet Union. Once the Berlin wall came down the West Germans were keen to start dismantling some of their welfare state system.

PS. good to note your friend also uses a mac. Macs for Marxists and all that. :@)