You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Some of you won't like this, but..
- Thread starter plongo
- Start date
ToffeeAndy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 27 May 2009
- Messages
- 223
Like I said I was interested to see City fans views on their chances of landing Lescott. The rest of my comments were due to someone referering to Everton as "small". I found this an odd comment.
ToffeeAndy said:Like I said I was interested to see City fans views on their chances of landing Lescott. The rest of my comments were due to someone referering to Everton as "small". I found this an odd comment.
Yeah you said that about 4 hours ago mate....
mcs
Well-Known Member
I just like to have a good considered discussion rather than dragging it down into the gutter like a lot of other posters!
"Building a team over many seasons, bringing in young talent and developing them, steady progress built on stability and excellent team spirit. Show me one team who is better equiped to break the top 4? Buying x superstar for x hundreds of millions doesn't work and its been proven time and time again. Were also not one or two major injuries away from our season being ruined as we've had 3 major injuries this season (Yakubu, Arteta, Jagielka) and still finished 5th, got to the FA Cup final and only finished 9 points behind Arsenal"
I’m not arguing that it takes time to build a team- a point that many City fans completely ignore. I’m also not saying you don’t have the best potential to theoretically break the top 4. I’m also not advocating a ‘galactico’ policy is the way to go- I believe City are on the right track here [There is no doubt the owners want big names, but the majority of signings still will be trying to build a strong squad overall], just as Everton has. I’d argue Villa at this stage is on about par with Everton. They have a quality young squad, decent overall depth, and most importantly money to spend. I don’t think O’Neill is a better manager then Moyes however. But they are certainly not far away from it- they did not finish far behind you and that was on the back on an absolutely awful 2nd half of the season. I think one thing is for certain though- you will need to make your move very soon, as there are 3 or 4 other teams that potentially will be about at the same level within the next 18-24 months. Villa for one, then potentially West Ham (Especially if the club is sold as I expect it soon may be), and then perhaps City and perhaps someone from mid table like a Pompey or a Sunderland, or perhaps Fulham even? Its going to get very congested in that middle part, and in the end without the $$$, Everton won’t be able to sustain their challenge.
Injuries
You can’t argue you’ve had 3 major injuries- Jagielka might be out for the season but that was about 4 games from the end of the season and makes very little difference on the overall season (Except perhaps for the FA CUP final of course.] You did well this season, that there is no doubt of, but when you have a small squad, it’s always a worry. The reliance that Everton has on the loan market (3 players I believe this season, and I expect a similar number next season) is also a problem- just because it is such a hit and miss situation. You also will have more than a couple of Waffle Cup games to worry about next season. There’s an extra minimum of 6 games, probably 8 or 10 if you progress as you should to account for at least. It might not sound like much, but looking at our experience alone it makes a huge difference to your season (Especially considering next season it will be worse with the extra group games). Added to this is the African cup of nations which could rob you of Yobo and Yakubu for up to 2 months. It certainly will be a tougher campaign next season, with the prospect of your squad being no bigger and possibly smaller than this season.
Arteta & Cahill.
Contracts mean jack all in football these days (Unless your name is Danny Mills!). If Arteta was to receive an offer from a big club, including the other Madrid (Who have CL football next season as well) then he will go. Loyalty is nothing but a word in football. You might get good money for him, but you still have to find a replacement for him, and in the inflated market that this summer will bring, that would not be easy. It’s the same for all the clubs in the mid part of the table. If Robinho got an offer from a big club, he'd be out the door quicker then we could say boo. (He is not a good example, but you get what I mean!)
As for Cahill, he might not be good enough to be a first team permanent member, but all the big 4 clubs work on the idea of being part of a squad, and that is simply rubbish that he's only good because of Moyes. He is fantastic at international level and was quality at Millwall as well (Although in a lower division). I’m sure if the right club made an offer and an improved contract, even perhaps abroad from the UK, he’d be at better then even odds to go. Especially if they gave him an offer of Champions League football- the one place he has yet to have the chance to prove himself.
I just don’t think your players are as immune to potential approaches as you might think they are. The mighty $$$ has just much more power for most players then loyalty or team spirit. Its a sad reality of modern football.
Depth
Your good depth is built mainly on the basis of having some great young talent to go with a generally quality first team, but as we have seen at City great young talent has the ability to be brilliant one year, not so the next. In terms of good depth, I am comparing Everton to a big 4 team, and your ‘good’ depth might be ‘good’ for mid table, but its not ‘good’ compared to them. It has served you well there, but to consistently challenge the top 4, you need as you say to find those quality 1st team players. Without cash, especially in the overhyped current markets, its not going to happen.
Stadium/Investment prospects
You are only in a good financial position because of the extreme frugality of your Chairman. The club I very much doubt is in a position where a potential owner could expect to make a decent return without having the need to build a new ground.
In the current market, that is not feasible at all- just look at the problems your beloved neighbours have had even thinking about a new stadium. Fixing/Refurbishing Goodison is hardly a workable option either I would expect. Unless you can get a massive sugar daddy in, I can’t see any major investment coming any time soon, and I don’t agree the club is that attractive to investors. If you can get a rich sugar daddy then you’ll be fine, but I would think they might look for clubs who don’t need so much capital investment to bring them up to world class standard. (Though maybe someone buying Pompey, even though the bloke is a nutcase may prove this not to be correct]
Moyes
I don’t think he’d go to Sunderland necessarily, but I think if he got the offer from a club offering a big wad of cash, he may very well be out the door. And no matter what Fergie says, he will retire soon and Moyes will be on that shortlist. He might be building something that looks special at the moment at Everton, but he is going to get frustrated eventually if he doesn’t get the investment to break through the glass ceiling.
"Building a team over many seasons, bringing in young talent and developing them, steady progress built on stability and excellent team spirit. Show me one team who is better equiped to break the top 4? Buying x superstar for x hundreds of millions doesn't work and its been proven time and time again. Were also not one or two major injuries away from our season being ruined as we've had 3 major injuries this season (Yakubu, Arteta, Jagielka) and still finished 5th, got to the FA Cup final and only finished 9 points behind Arsenal"
I’m not arguing that it takes time to build a team- a point that many City fans completely ignore. I’m also not saying you don’t have the best potential to theoretically break the top 4. I’m also not advocating a ‘galactico’ policy is the way to go- I believe City are on the right track here [There is no doubt the owners want big names, but the majority of signings still will be trying to build a strong squad overall], just as Everton has. I’d argue Villa at this stage is on about par with Everton. They have a quality young squad, decent overall depth, and most importantly money to spend. I don’t think O’Neill is a better manager then Moyes however. But they are certainly not far away from it- they did not finish far behind you and that was on the back on an absolutely awful 2nd half of the season. I think one thing is for certain though- you will need to make your move very soon, as there are 3 or 4 other teams that potentially will be about at the same level within the next 18-24 months. Villa for one, then potentially West Ham (Especially if the club is sold as I expect it soon may be), and then perhaps City and perhaps someone from mid table like a Pompey or a Sunderland, or perhaps Fulham even? Its going to get very congested in that middle part, and in the end without the $$$, Everton won’t be able to sustain their challenge.
Injuries
You can’t argue you’ve had 3 major injuries- Jagielka might be out for the season but that was about 4 games from the end of the season and makes very little difference on the overall season (Except perhaps for the FA CUP final of course.] You did well this season, that there is no doubt of, but when you have a small squad, it’s always a worry. The reliance that Everton has on the loan market (3 players I believe this season, and I expect a similar number next season) is also a problem- just because it is such a hit and miss situation. You also will have more than a couple of Waffle Cup games to worry about next season. There’s an extra minimum of 6 games, probably 8 or 10 if you progress as you should to account for at least. It might not sound like much, but looking at our experience alone it makes a huge difference to your season (Especially considering next season it will be worse with the extra group games). Added to this is the African cup of nations which could rob you of Yobo and Yakubu for up to 2 months. It certainly will be a tougher campaign next season, with the prospect of your squad being no bigger and possibly smaller than this season.
Arteta & Cahill.
Contracts mean jack all in football these days (Unless your name is Danny Mills!). If Arteta was to receive an offer from a big club, including the other Madrid (Who have CL football next season as well) then he will go. Loyalty is nothing but a word in football. You might get good money for him, but you still have to find a replacement for him, and in the inflated market that this summer will bring, that would not be easy. It’s the same for all the clubs in the mid part of the table. If Robinho got an offer from a big club, he'd be out the door quicker then we could say boo. (He is not a good example, but you get what I mean!)
As for Cahill, he might not be good enough to be a first team permanent member, but all the big 4 clubs work on the idea of being part of a squad, and that is simply rubbish that he's only good because of Moyes. He is fantastic at international level and was quality at Millwall as well (Although in a lower division). I’m sure if the right club made an offer and an improved contract, even perhaps abroad from the UK, he’d be at better then even odds to go. Especially if they gave him an offer of Champions League football- the one place he has yet to have the chance to prove himself.
I just don’t think your players are as immune to potential approaches as you might think they are. The mighty $$$ has just much more power for most players then loyalty or team spirit. Its a sad reality of modern football.
Depth
Your good depth is built mainly on the basis of having some great young talent to go with a generally quality first team, but as we have seen at City great young talent has the ability to be brilliant one year, not so the next. In terms of good depth, I am comparing Everton to a big 4 team, and your ‘good’ depth might be ‘good’ for mid table, but its not ‘good’ compared to them. It has served you well there, but to consistently challenge the top 4, you need as you say to find those quality 1st team players. Without cash, especially in the overhyped current markets, its not going to happen.
Stadium/Investment prospects
You are only in a good financial position because of the extreme frugality of your Chairman. The club I very much doubt is in a position where a potential owner could expect to make a decent return without having the need to build a new ground.
In the current market, that is not feasible at all- just look at the problems your beloved neighbours have had even thinking about a new stadium. Fixing/Refurbishing Goodison is hardly a workable option either I would expect. Unless you can get a massive sugar daddy in, I can’t see any major investment coming any time soon, and I don’t agree the club is that attractive to investors. If you can get a rich sugar daddy then you’ll be fine, but I would think they might look for clubs who don’t need so much capital investment to bring them up to world class standard. (Though maybe someone buying Pompey, even though the bloke is a nutcase may prove this not to be correct]
Moyes
I don’t think he’d go to Sunderland necessarily, but I think if he got the offer from a club offering a big wad of cash, he may very well be out the door. And no matter what Fergie says, he will retire soon and Moyes will be on that shortlist. He might be building something that looks special at the moment at Everton, but he is going to get frustrated eventually if he doesn’t get the investment to break through the glass ceiling.
mcs
Well-Known Member
ToffeeAndy said:Like I said I was interested to see City fans views on their chances of landing Lescott. The rest of my comments were due to someone referering to Everton as "small". I found this an odd comment.
As for Lescott, I can think that we could land Lescott. Its probably the most likely of all the rumours that have been floating around. It would be no doubt either be that we would give you Jo + quite a few $$$, or good money for him by himself. I wouldn't be suprised for their to be a swap of sorts made- Jo has done well @ Everton imo, and as you say Moyes likes young players that he can mould and develop. Lescott is a quality player and would fit in at City, and we may also be able to offer him a starting birth at CB (Which I believe is his favoured position), plus of course most likely better wages as well. Its a deal that wouldn't suprise me at all.
ToffeeAndy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 27 May 2009
- Messages
- 223
mcs said:I just like to have a good considered discussion rather than dragging it down into the gutter like a lot of other posters!
"Building a team over many seasons, bringing in young talent and developing them, steady progress built on stability and excellent team spirit. Show me one team who is better equiped to break the top 4? Buying x superstar for x hundreds of millions doesn't work and its been proven time and time again. Were also not one or two major injuries away from our season being ruined as we've had 3 major injuries this season (Yakubu, Arteta, Jagielka) and still finished 5th, got to the FA Cup final and only finished 9 points behind Arsenal"
I’m not arguing that it takes time to build a team- a point that many City fans completely ignore. I’m also not saying you don’t have the best potential to theoretically break the top 4. I’m also not advocating a ‘galactico’ policy is the way to go- I believe City are on the right track here [There is no doubt the owners want big names, but the majority of signings still will be trying to build a strong squad overall], just as Everton has. I’d argue Villa at this stage is on about par with Everton. They have a quality young squad, decent overall depth, and most importantly money to spend. I don’t think O’Neill is a better manager then Moyes however. But they are certainly not far away from it- they did not finish far behind you and that was on the back on an absolutely awful 2nd half of the season. I think one thing is for certain though- you will need to make your move very soon, as there are 3 or 4 other teams that potentially will be about at the same level within the next 18-24 months. Villa for one, then potentially West Ham (Especially if the club is sold as I expect it soon may be), and then perhaps City and perhaps someone from mid table like a Pompey or a Sunderland, or perhaps Fulham even? Its going to get very congested in that middle part, and in the end without the $$$, Everton won’t be able to sustain their challenge.
Injuries
You can’t argue you’ve had 3 major injuries- Jagielka might be out for the season but that was about 4 games from the end of the season and makes very little difference on the overall season (Except perhaps for the FA CUP final of course.] You did well this season, that there is no doubt of, but when you have a small squad, it’s always a worry. The reliance that Everton has on the loan market (3 players I believe this season, and I expect a similar number next season) is also a problem- just because it is such a hit and miss situation. You also will have more than a couple of Waffle Cup games to worry about next season. There’s an extra minimum of 6 games, probably 8 or 10 if you progress as you should to account for at least. It might not sound like much, but looking at our experience alone it makes a huge difference to your season (Especially considering next season it will be worse with the extra group games). Added to this is the African cup of nations which could rob you of Yobo and Yakubu for up to 2 months. It certainly will be a tougher campaign next season, with the prospect of your squad being no bigger and possibly smaller than this season.
Arteta & Cahill.
Contracts mean jack all in football these days (Unless your name is Danny Mills!). If Arteta was to receive an offer from a big club, including the other Madrid (Who have CL football next season as well) then he will go. Loyalty is nothing but a word in football. You might get good money for him, but you still have to find a replacement for him, and in the inflated market that this summer will bring, that would not be easy. It’s the same for all the clubs in the mid part of the table. If Robinho got an offer from a big club, he'd be out the door quicker then we could say boo. (He is not a good example, but you get what I mean!)
As for Cahill, he might not be good enough to be a first team permanent member, but all the big 4 clubs work on the idea of being part of a squad, and that is simply rubbish that he's only good because of Moyes. He is fantastic at international level and was quality at Millwall as well (Although in a lower division). I’m sure if the right club made an offer and an improved contract, even perhaps abroad from the UK, he’d be at better then even odds to go. Especially if they gave him an offer of Champions League football- the one place he has yet to have the chance to prove himself.
I just don’t think your players are as immune to potential approaches as you might think they are. The mighty $$$ has just much more power for most players then loyalty or team spirit. Its a sad reality of modern football.
Depth
Your good depth is built mainly on the basis of having some great young talent to go with a generally quality first team, but as we have seen at City great young talent has the ability to be brilliant one year, not so the next. In terms of good depth, I am comparing Everton to a big 4 team, and your ‘good’ depth might be ‘good’ for mid table, but its not ‘good’ compared to them. It has served you well there, but to consistently challenge the top 4, you need as you say to find those quality 1st team players. Without cash, especially in the overhyped current markets, its not going to happen.
Stadium/Investment prospects
You are only in a good financial position because of the extreme frugality of your Chairman. The club I very much doubt is in a position where a potential owner could expect to make a decent return without having the need to build a new ground.
In the current market, that is not feasible at all- just look at the problems your beloved neighbours have had even thinking about a new stadium. Fixing/Refurbishing Goodison is hardly a workable option either I would expect. Unless you can get a massive sugar daddy in, I can’t see any major investment coming any time soon, and I don’t agree the club is that attractive to investors. If you can get a rich sugar daddy then you’ll be fine, but I would think they might look for clubs who don’t need so much capital investment to bring them up to world class standard. (Though maybe someone buying Pompey, even though the bloke is a nutcase may prove this not to be correct]
Moyes
I don’t think he’d go to Sunderland necessarily, but I think if he got the offer from a club offering a big wad of cash, he may very well be out the door. And no matter what Fergie says, he will retire soon and Moyes will be on that shortlist. He might be building something that looks special at the moment at Everton, but he is going to get frustrated eventually if he doesn’t get the investment to break through the glass ceiling.
An excellent well thought out and pretty accurate argument. There's a few points you got slightly worng but thats not unexpected of someone looking at another club and i'll not debate them as overall you put a good mature and intellegent argument across.
I never came on this site to wind people up its just some people seemed a bit ignorant of facts and understanding of my club... however you've shown there are City fans out there with their heads screwed on.
I will still pull you up on the Lescott argument tho. The only thing you could offer him is an crazxy contract. He's playing for a team that plucked him from the championship and turned him into an england international, he plays week in week out now in his favoured centre back position and will be playing in europe next season.
Jo did well for us this season at home but was non existent away from home. Still overall a good contribution from the lad but we really dont need him... not like we need Lescott. We dont need to sell him so it would take crazy money to get him.
Still i'm happy to agree to disagree on this point.
I would expect to have to pay somewhere between 20 and 25m. I'd say given that'll be practically impossible for us to get a bargain paying over the odds (by far) is unavoidable and all that matters is the quality of the player. He's worth it IMO.
TA would 20-25m do it?
(I think once we get a proper top 4 challenging team we'll be able to haggle from a stronger position which should bring don our average outlay. So I don't think the model of paying crazy sums now is all that bad.)
TA would 20-25m do it?
(I think once we get a proper top 4 challenging team we'll be able to haggle from a stronger position which should bring don our average outlay. So I don't think the model of paying crazy sums now is all that bad.)
Petetheblu
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 10 Sep 2007
- Messages
- 7,319
I agree with Toffee, we are to young as a project and need time to grow and be more attractive. Some mooners think we can basically buy anyone and intruth we will be looking at the Santa's of the world and not the Messi's
Lescott won't be coming to City soon, not until we are in an overall (off and on the pitch) better position...The only comfort being is we WILL get better and will eventually attract the quality we can only dream of at the moment.
Lescott won't be coming to City soon, not until we are in an overall (off and on the pitch) better position...The only comfort being is we WILL get better and will eventually attract the quality we can only dream of at the moment.