Chick Counterfly said:
Sorry, I'll dig it out tomorrow. There's been some good discussions on here that you might have missed, did you see the thread 'is mancini adapting his inter tactics'? Some cracking stuff in there about the basics of our system (It's easy to think of this as 4-2-3-1 but to my mind that entails lots of tactical choices that are quite different from our approach, I think we're closer to Barca's 4-3-3).
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(Ignore all the talk about the midfield diamonds, god knows we never even tried to do it on the pitch)
When did that thread happen. I think I might have to resurrect it.
Having said that, I don't think this particular topic was covered. It has been covered at points in the media, from the first league game there were questions over who was supposed to cover wide positions and how they weren't getting tight enough. The problems associated with narrow midfield three were highlighted a few times since, and whilst it wasn't discussed around the time of the defeats to Everton and Liverpool, to me those games were perfect illustrations of us getting exactly that issue wrong, collectively and individually.
I think the problem often is one of players individually failing at there responsibilities, or frankly not adhering to there role in the system. As for the Liverpool game, I believe it was one of the few games in which we used an actual 442. Milner and Johnson were the wingers and Barry and Yaya the midfielders. Both Milner and Barry Hugged the wing often and we were outnumbered in central Midfield with Suarez Joining, Spearing and the Brazilian. But formation aside, we lost that game coz they came with energy and we did not respond. We were slow, sluggish and easy to defend, because there was no movement on offense.
Basically I don't think there is an easy distinction between what you do in attack and defence, as evinced by the idea that the best defence may be to dominate possession. For the sakes of this debate, a fullback who's area is under repeated attack would have to be pretty stupid to bomb forward. If he realises his 'winger' is only bothering the central areas, then he's likely to push upfield. It's also simple topology; if the 'winger' is play-making through the centre, then he's also central when the play breaks down. If the midfield is also narrow then they can't stop the fullback breaking
.
Okay let me respond to this part. I think there is a difference, or better put, there can be a difference. Lets take for example Barca's Trap defense. It doesn't matter what position you play, if you are close to the ball when possesion is lost, i.e. if you were a pass option at the time possesion was lost you are expected to immediately charge the ball carrier. If he is a fullback, DM or CD even better. All Barca players (Except the CD's for obvious reasons_ participate in this drill. The guy who loses the ball and his 2 most immediate pass options immediately attack the ball and try to win it back. This system works irrespective of where you move or are positioned. It is invariably keyed to where the ball is on the field. So in that system your offense has nothig to do with your defense.
As for teams that back off, the advantage of seamless movement (a neccesity for breaking down defenses) is to just pick your area of the field and defend it. It is quite simple, once posession is lost, the AM backs off to join the DMs in the middle and the narrow LM and RM Track any advancing from the Fullbacks. You don't need to be close early. You need to be close once in your final third. As For the idea of an advancing fullback. He is not going to advance when the opposition has the ball. So clearly any advancing has to wait till possession is gained by his team. And the fact that SIlva drifts inside doesn't mean the wide area is unused. That is where the fullback fills in. Forcing the Winger of the other team to cover. The other advantage of a narrow 3, is that it allows you to trap or zone quickly. Milner does this very effectively. If the ball is lost on Milner's wing, he banks hard to the inside and forces the offense to go down the line where they can be trapped. rather than giving them options to the line as well as the middle. This is where team defending comes in. A concept that exist regardless how you attack the opposition.
4-2-3-1 had a specific mechanism to combat this, using two dedicated holding players, as opposed to our one and a half....and that's one reason we aren't really 4-2-3-1.
So are you saying we play the 4231 poorly because of Barry or that we don't play it at all?
The remaining problem with (what I recognise as true 4-2-3-1) was that it was held to lack width in attack, I can't remember/wasn't paying attention to just how opponents figured out how to stop the play, but as a particular system it did have it's day then fade rather quickly. What we tend to see is 4-5-1/4-3-3 with real wide men/strikers displaced onto the wing, sometimes 'working wingers', but usually NOT playmakers and supplementary midfielders. It's still the predominant tactical form in this league at least. We're kind of neither one thing nor the other. That thread is the best explanation of what we are, even if it doesn't tell you the story of how we're still struggling to get tight to the wide men on a regular basis, the part about Centre-backs defending the wings when we're fully on the attack ought to be food for thought.
Yes, I agree that we played lots of formations and some poorly based on our personel and development. We certainly stated out with a 4312 or 433 early on in the season. But overtime we most resembled a 4231, with certain players playing there positions diferently. For example AJ always stayed very wide whenever he played. looking somethin like this
...............Dejong........Barry....................
Johnson.............Yaya.......Silva................
and sometimes with Balo on the left it looked more llke
.............................De Jong......................
..................................................Barry
...................Silva...............Yaya................
..............................Tevez...........Balotelli...
which suggested we were in some kind of slanted diamond 442. And for most of the season Barry always played slighly ahead of De Jong. But the most conceptually fitting formation for the 2nd part of our Season was a 4231
